Not signed in (Log In)
Random Photo
(changes every 15 minutes)
let the president know we ready to go into iran...
Photo by RickySilk. Caption by .
read and rate other captions »
post your own caption »
submit a photo to caption »
Site Supported By Ads
Recent Comments

    Why I Am A Communist
    Posted by Punkerslut on Apr 19, 2005 at 07:37 AM

    Comments

    MajicWalrus's Avatar .
    MajicWalrus spoke on Apr 19, 2005 at 10:06 AM
    First let me say that I totally agree with you. Now let me point out the flaws in your essay, your supporting quotes at times became a bit monotonious, they carried on too much of some of the paragraphs. Your main idea was great, but you seemed to focus too much on the faults of capatalism and not the achievements of Communism or Socialism. You also seemed to focus much on child labour and that became what I thought as too much of a point.

    Also, you might want to get ready to be flamed. For some reason people don't like us Socialist-Communists.
    's Avatar .
    Anonymous Coward spoke on Apr 19, 2005 at 02:35 PM
    if u live in a subdiviision where you control your neighbor...u're a fascists. if u condone cameras in the streets, peeing in a cup for a job, the patriot act...ur a fascists, if u believe in the war on drugs which isn't about drugs...u're a fascists. if u believe in drug,dmv,or tax courts where the constitution doesn't exist...ur a fascist. if u believe that waco was right...ur a fascists, if u believe that u're vote to vote on those chosen for u to vote for counts...then u're a dumbass. communists got their asses whupped. they're over. fascism is the new wave of totalitarian control by ur gov't and your neighbors. communism is a non subject.
    EuroTrash's Avatar .
    EuroTrash spoke on Apr 19, 2005 at 03:06 PM
    Congratulation on a well written argument, please forgive me if i lack the same level of grammar and prose. That being said, your argument is very flawed. Capitalism is a bad system, that would truly destroy the lower rungs of society, luck for us, there are no truly capitalist systems, and there never will be, because of the nature of humanity, in the same way that communism in its purest form will also always fail, the nature of humanity shares both compassion and greed, each of with are at odds with pure ideologies. We do live in a capitalistic society, where wages are paid based on work and contribution, and profits are gained by those who own rather than produce, however the workers in our system do have property, and they do own, and with proper education they can gain more and live above poverty levels. The flaw in this is that it is up to the upper classes to provide these opportunities, most of the time, unions for example are systems unallowed by true capitalism, however they were created and brought change in our system.
    While i agree our system is flawed, the solution if defiantly not communism, as seen throughout history, the greed and independent natures of mankind do not allow a system like that to succeed, rather the goal should be to create a more fair capitalistic system.
    Finally the greatest flaw in your argument were the references to writers long since past. I am a historian, well at least in training, working on my postgraduate degree, and i have a passion for history, but the people you have used for quotes either were writing during times when our system was much more flawed, where there were no unions or regulations, or they were writing in contemporary times about historical settings. One more comment, your analysis on both roman economics and feudalism are quite skewed.
    's Avatar .
    Anonymous Coward spoke on Apr 19, 2005 at 06:59 PM
    You appear to be positing that under capitalism factory and agricultural workers are paid only a small percentage of the gross wealth they help create, and that this, combined with the limited job mobility of said workers approximately replicates the human condition of European serfs during the middle ages and of slaves during Roman Antiquity, ergo Capitalism is morally bankrupt and Communism is the only alternative.

    In so far as you are arguing that the condition of a contemporary industrial worker in the United States or Western Europe is equivalent to that of a Medieval serf or Ancient Roman slave, I submit to you the following:

    (A) If your capitalist boss is mad at you, the worst he can do to you is fire you. He cannot torture you. He cannot kill you. He cannot starve you to death, or pillory you, or sell you. If the conflict goes all the way to court, you've got the benefit of an independent judiciary, not a manorial court, as in the case of a serf, or your master just decides how to punish you for what he thinks you did, as in the case of a slave.
    (B) The material condition of said industrial worker is substantially better than that of the serf or the slave. At worst he lives in an apartment with running water, adequate heat, a fridge, and eats enough that obesity is becoming a huge problem in the United States and Europe's poorer population. He does not live in a leaky mud hut with a thatch roof and no door, as in the case of a serf, or in a stable, as in the case of a Roman slave.
    (C) You are an idiot.

    That said, I think workers in most of the United States should get a bigger piece of the corporate pie, but global revolution seems like an extreme solution, given Communism's dismal track record at improving peoples' living conditions and the fact that unionization and legislation by the current polity are a perfectly adequate and quite effective way of dealing with the problem.

    Capitalism is a flawed system. So is every other system. The only people who are unaware of the fact that capitalism is a flawed system are economists who are severely disconnected from reality and take the character of religious fundamentalists more than semi-math-nerds who know about game theory. To your attempt to show that capitalism is, in fact, flawed all I can say is "well, duh."

    It does not, however, follow from the flawed nature of Capitalism that Communism is superior and should be adopted. Communism has failed miserably at enhancing the condition and protecting the rights of man. In terms of people oppressed during the last century, it made the fascists look like amateurs. Communist regimes built concentration camps from Hungary to Korea. Communist regimes committed several genocides. When a large chunk of of the communist world was overthrown, the people who had lived under it celebrated, and as to the remaining communist regimes, I invite you to research the condition of their citizens at Amnesty International's web site: www.amnesty.org. Communism even failed in it's stated vision of advancement of humanity's material condition. While the west had VCR's, McDonald's, and air conditioners, the citizens of the Soviet Union had to stand in line for bread and could only get oranges if they were lucky.

    Finally, under Communism, as stated by it's various founders, property rights are not the only rights which are curtailed. Freedom of speech is curtailed. Freedom of religion is curtailed. Freedom of thought is curtailed. In practice, under Communism, many more freedoms, such as freedom of movement, were curtailed as well.

    In conclusion, Capitalism is in fact flawed, but it is less flawed than Communism, which is a moral and materiel failure which was the greatest scourge upon mankind of the 20th century. I reiterate my point (C), as above.

    And now I am going to go back to eating my capitalist cheeseburger and watching my capitalist TV, and when I am done I'm going to say the prayers which I my free, capitalistic, democratic society allows me to, and go to bed and sleep well in my capitalist-manufactured air conditioning.
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 19, 2005 at 07:09 PM
    KungFoo just randomly listed that as if I was logged out for no reason.
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 19, 2005 at 07:20 PM
    You need not be mystified by the contempt in which most people hold communism. Merely call to mind the Gulag, the Khmer Rouge, the Latvian Genocide, the KGB, the NKVD, Stasi, the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, Vector and the Soviet Bioweapons program, and I could go on and on and on and on. . .

    It's not that we don't like you as people; you seem like a pretty cool guy. It's just that you're espousing an ideology in whose name more people were tortured and oppressed than any other in history.

    Joe Cocomo
    EuroTrash's Avatar .
    EuroTrash spoke on Apr 19, 2005 at 07:37 PM
    Im Eurotrash, and i approve that message, well put joe
    squirrel's Avatar .
    squirrel spoke on Apr 19, 2005 at 07:59 PM
    Spelling, grammar, and punctuation add credibility to an argument. Although, I'm not even sure they would help yours.
    MajicWalrus's Avatar .
    MajicWalrus spoke on Apr 19, 2005 at 09:35 PM
    Seriously? Do you believe that?

    Nazi's murdered millions and millions of Jews and Christians and gays. The various religious crusades killed countless. Exploration of the new world by Europeans all but destoryed all native american indians. And that's just the top of the list of atrocities committed because of various ideals.
    MajicWalrus's Avatar .
    MajicWalrus spoke on Apr 19, 2005 at 09:41 PM
    The USSR was neither a communist country nor a socialist country, it was a failed attempt at socialism (it failed because of Lenin's death and Stalin's rule).

    You're idea that Capitalism is "less flawed" than Communism cannot accurately be proven. Everyone chooses the US and the USSR as the examples of Capitalist and Communistic societies resepectively, but you fail to factor in the corrupt and fiercely capitalist countires that haven't amounted to what the US is and you forget to factor in "Communistic" societies that have thrived in the past.
    's Avatar .
    Anonymous Coward spoke on Apr 20, 2005 at 02:11 AM
    Communism killed over 100 million people in the 20th Centuary, it's a discredited idology that brings only misery and death.

    Pick whatever example you like you will find secret police, execution, starvation and torture. From the Khmer Rogue in Cambodia, to Chinese Communism, to Casto in Cuba to the Soviet Satellite states. It is intrinsically linked to the system, Hayek saw this, Wnston Churchill saw this, and they aren't alone.

    Capitalism however brings prosperity, it creates wealth, and leads to a better standard of living for all, look at East Germany Vs West Germany, and who was more sucessful. North Koreans are borderline starving while South Koreans are rich, yes there might be more inequality but who cares? these are examples of the same peopel split into two groups, identical peoples, yet the ones under capitalism flourished, the ones under communism suffered - it was the communists that built a wall to stop the peopel leavign the east, not the ther way around. Yes people all earn the same in Cuba but it isn't Americans you find risking the shark infested waters in leaky boats to get accross.

    I'm sure people are more equal in communist countries, but when the poorest in a rich country has more than the richest in a poor country, ask yourself where would you rather live. As an example where would you rather be poor, Switzerland or Swaziland?

    The other benefit of capitalism is it is a more moral alternative, nobody is coerced into anything. Capitalism is a network of voluntry trades, it is characterised by cooperation and peace, unlike communism which relies on force and the raw power of the state to maintain the status quo. Under capitalism even the worst

    There are also many errors in your understanding of economics, people do not work 8 hour days because the law mandates they do so, labour unions and strikes are not the reason they do either, peopel have a choice of work of leisure, as they grow richer they want more time to enjoy their wealth. You also misunderstand the process of wage-setting, people earn their discounted marginal value product, ie. they earn what they make, consider the options I am a lowly worker, you are all, capitalist pigs, the first of you offers me $0.01 an hour, i acecept it to put foodo n the table, but i'm making you $4 an hour, so another of you will offer me more, only $0.02 as you are a capitalist pig right? my wages will be bid up until I am earning $4 an hour or thereabouts. The same applies to CEO salaries and athlete salaries, they earn that much because thats what they make for their firm. The same applies to benefits liek a shorter working day - one of you might offer me the same wage but less hours,another would offer me that and sick days, the market process is the facilitator of this and is reponsible for how well off we are. Chris Gent, the chairman of vodafone earms millions each year, btu he provides more than that to his firm, else why would they employ him?

    Your assertation that capitalism is responsible for poverty in the industrial revolution is also misguided. The criticism of capitalism used to be it left the workers impovrished and unable to afford even a subsistence levelk, now it is that people have too much adn waste it frivilously on crap they don't need. Regardless of whatever system we had during the industrial revolution, people would still be poor, society as a whole was poor then, kids had to work as its the best alternative they had, if they didn't society would be even poorer, under a communist system then peopel would starve, or remain forever as peasants.

    What it all boils down to is a question of how things get done, i may perform you a service, i may do it for one of three ways, you may trade for my labour, so if i clean your shoes you may give me some money, i may do it out of love, or you may force me to do it. In the first two instances I beenfit from the trade too, else why would I do it? in the third I do not necessarily. Under capitalism force is outlawed, we must do things through trade or love, but love is not enough, in the diversified market economy love is not enough for me to have an education, eat, produce a computer and so on, under a communist system peopel would be forced to work to make these things, yet only under capitalism is every transation voluntary. I am not forced to buy food from the shops I do, I am not forced into anything, I of my own choice choose where I go, if I don't liek a shop, or somewhere sells me poor quality produce i go somewhere else, the profit motive is a powerful factor, and leaves us where we are today, you quote a lot so I will finish with a couple.

    "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."
    Adam Smith

    "A society based on the freedom to choose is better than a society based on the principles of socialism, communism and coercion."
    Milton Friedman

    Anthony
    's Avatar .
    Anonymous Coward spoke on Apr 20, 2005 at 02:38 AM
    realised I left a paragraph half finished:

    The other benefit of capitalism is it is a more moral alternative, nobody is coerced into anything. Capitalism is a network of voluntry trades, it is characterised by cooperation and peace, unlike communism which relies on force and the raw power of the state to maintain the status quo. Under capitalism even the worst

    should continue:

    off are better off than their ancestors, and it will continue to go that way. The average worker now has a lifestyle kinds and lords in the past would give everythign that owned for.

    Another thing looking again at your post, you appear to separate people int oa capitalistclass and a worker class when your distinction is false, we dont have a massively rich few and a poor many in the western world, we have a distribution shaped like an F distribution if you do stats, with at the tail end the Bill Gates type characters, going back through the Athletes to the CEOs to the stockbrokers to the accountants to the academics to the teachers to the electicians and plumbers to the factory workers to the people in macdonalds, all of hwhom own your 'means of production'. THat's what the stock market is, a large percentage of the stock in there is owned by the pension plans of these people, your parents will have stocks and shares to save for retirement. it isn't us and them, its a gradual curve.

    Another fault is still buying into the idea that profit is 'surplus value', another area where Marx was wholly wrong, see Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk [link] (he pointed this out over 100 years ago)

    Anthony
    RickySilk's Avatar .
    RickySilk spoke on Apr 20, 2005 at 06:27 AM
    Joe, a user session dies after 20 minutes of inactivity (i can't control this) and there is a bug in the "keep me logged in" when your session times out while you're composing a comment. This usually happens when someone is composing a well thought out comment like yours.

    I've known about this bug for quite some time and I keep meaning to investigate it.

    Sorry, for the hassle.
    squee's Avatar .
    squee spoke on Apr 20, 2005 at 07:39 AM
    Yes, there have been many terrible failed attempts at communism, but stating that avoids the entire point of the debate between capitalism and communism. Neither one is supposed to go hand in hand with genocides or human rights or morality. Its possible to have communism, and still have democracy. The lack of existence of a successful system yet isn't necessarily proof that it isn't possible. It took forever for successful democracies to start up. Theoretically communism could heal the inherant flaws of pairing capitalism with democracy.
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 20, 2005 at 09:44 AM
    The genocide persecuted by the fascists during the 40's and the genocide of native peoples during the colonial era were atrocities. However, I refer you to the numbers by the University of Hawaii which examined the germicides committed by the Soviet government alone and estimated that approximately 70,000,000 people were killed by that regime after 1917. ( [link] ) The Nazi 8,000,000 doesn't come close. The genocide of native peoples occurred during an era when there weren't enough people to go round to match the Soviets, and in any case many of those deaths were accidental consequences of communicable disease, a problem which was not well understood at the time.
    EuroTrash's Avatar .
    EuroTrash spoke on Apr 20, 2005 at 01:16 PM
    But this isn't a debate between communism and capitalism, so far punkerslut has just explained (with some limited and bad examples) the problem of capitalism. As for a democratic communistic state, i guess it techincally is possible, but that involves some pretty big assumptions about true human nature, as well as a logistical nightmare (getting everyone to vote for everything would be horrendously difficult, and on that note if the ideals of communism are that those who produce own, then what about those who govern? do they have a share of the ownership, even though they don't actually produce anything?)
    EuroTrash's Avatar .
    EuroTrash spoke on Apr 20, 2005 at 01:32 PM
    Hinduism had murder cults and thats why I'm a Muslim.

    that argument doesn't really work, and thats the premise of punkersluts article. if you were to try and convince to be a communist, you should at least start by explaining to me what communism is, then explain why thats good. So far i've read very little defending communism, mostly just people saying that the soviet union and those examples don't count because they weren't really communist, well tell me why. Apart from all that, there are other options, just like religion, if you want to be an economic atheist, you can be an anarchist, or for those Orthodox religions there's merchantilism, for the Islamic economist there's trade and barter market place theories. if you believe capitalism is bad (which i don't) you have to point out which is good, otherwise you are just whining.
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 20, 2005 at 02:01 PM
    I will concede that it would be difficult to "prove" in the empirical sense that Capitalism is "less flawed" than Communism if for no other reason the fact that the idea of what "flawed" means is so hard to nail down. That said, the blood of I back my argument that capitalist, republican polities are less flawed than communist "dictatorships of the proletariat" with the silent witness of the millions killed by communist regimes during the last century.

    Everyone chooses the US and the USSR (though you will note that in my above arguments I did not; I refer to "the US and Western Europe" and include no particular communist regime to the exclusion of any other) because they were the major players in the global conflict which occurred between capitalist democracies and communist oligarchies during the last century.

    Finally, if the ideology and actions of the myriad communist regimes of the 20th century, both Leninist and Maoist, do not reflect "communism" what does? Where are these alleged "communistic" societies you refer to thriving?

    Joe Cocomo
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 20, 2005 at 02:09 PM
    Allow me to answer that argument in two parts;

    (A) The fact that something has never actually worked in the past does not prove, in a formal sense, that it will never work in the future. But once enough failed attempts have been made, it's a safe bet that it won't, especially after millions of innocents have died in said attempts.

    (B) As for the idea that communism could "theoretically. . . heal the inherent flaws of pairing capitalism with democracy," I think that in the end that really all just depends on whose theory you chose to believe. I refer back to my argument (A).
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 20, 2005 at 02:24 PM
    As much as I disagree with punkerslut, that isn't his argument; he deserves a little (very little) bit more credit than that. His argument is more akin to "Hinduism is a murder cult, in the general sense that applies to all Hinduism not just a couple of sects or cults, therefore I am a Muslim." He is attempting to show capitalism as such a bad option, always and everywhere, that any alternative looks good.

    Of course, this reasoning is still open to two very obvious attacks:

    (A) Hinduism is not a murder cult, nor is capitalism the evil he has painted it (rather ineptly) to be, and

    (B) Even if Hinduism or Capitalism were as bad as he has made them out to be, it does not necessarily follow that Islam or Capitalism are any better.
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 20, 2005 at 02:28 PM
    I'm glad I have the Eurotrash Seal of Approval(TM) ;)
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 20, 2005 at 02:30 PM
    The above was supposed to read "genocides" not "germicides." My apologies and >( to the spell check software. . .
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 20, 2005 at 02:36 PM
    Come now, clearly the poor child barely managed to form a thought to post and now you're going to scare him away from ever trying again.

    :)
    's Avatar .
    Anonymous Coward spoke on Apr 20, 2005 at 08:27 PM
    the fact that i cheated on spelling a little changes what? u know what i meant when i said u and u know what i meant when i said whupped. fascist is spelled correctly or i need a new dictionary. now explain to me again why you attacked my intentional mispellings and not the subject of my post....oh intelligent ones.....i'll tell you. ur 2 dam ignrant 2 mak a discussion about anythin' that doesn't involve verbal assault. basically the people on this site are dimwits that have nothing better to do than attack people that make a case for thought because they have no independent thought capabilities on their own. if i were wrong we would be discussing fascism/communism instead of spelling.
    MajicWalrus's Avatar .
    MajicWalrus spoke on Apr 20, 2005 at 10:04 PM
    I wasn't calculating numbers, I was just saying that genocide is "worse" than killing lots of people, because genocide an attempted genocide is the murder of a race and not just mass murder. Dig?
    MajicWalrus's Avatar .
    MajicWalrus spoke on Apr 20, 2005 at 10:10 PM
    Marxist ideals would be a closer ideology to use because it is "the beginning".
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 21, 2005 at 09:34 AM
    I'll accept that premise for the sake of argument, but, as I said; where are these thriving communistic societies you've referred to? (I'll an answer which pins them down in either space or time. . .)

    Joe Cocomo
    MajicWalrus's Avatar .
    MajicWalrus spoke on Apr 21, 2005 at 10:38 AM
    Your first "arguement" was so incoherant that it was impossible to make an assumption as to what you said. All I got from it was "All Americans are facists, I'm a facists, Commies are out, we're in."

    That point is stupid because facism has been around longer than communism and communism is still around you need a history book.

    Also you need an English book and a spelling book. If you can get through a post without misspelling a single word perhaps you'd be listened to more carefully.
    's Avatar .
    Anonymous Coward spoke on Apr 21, 2005 at 01:42 PM
    I'll accept that premise for the sake of argument, but, as I said; where are these thriving communistic societies you've referred to? (I'll an answer which pins them down in either space or time. . .)

    Joe Cocomo
    's Avatar .
    Anonymous Coward spoke on Apr 21, 2005 at 02:03 PM
    i must be stupid. i could've sworn i was in a board on communism and not grammar and spelling lessons. you belong in the ididtomanydrugsandaren'tcapableofkindergartenthought.com board.
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 21, 2005 at 07:16 PM
    ididtomanydrugsandaren'tcapableofkindergartenthought.com

    I am just blown away by that retort.

    I'm tempted to register that domain name. godaddy.com says it's available. :)

    In any case, I am proven wrong. squirrel didn't manage to frighten him away. . .
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 21, 2005 at 07:22 PM
    I'm not sure I dig, no, and I think I've probably got 62,000,000 other people who wouldn't if they were alive, but I suppose it's a valid opinion even if I disagree with it.

    You asked me if I believe that "you're espousing an ideology in whose name more people were tortured and oppressed than any other in history." I do.

    Joe Cocomo
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 21, 2005 at 07:24 PM
    ECHO ECHO Echo echo echo. . .
    MajicWalrus's Avatar .
    MajicWalrus spoke on Apr 21, 2005 at 09:12 PM
    China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, and Vietnam. And you'll note that they are in alpha order.
    MajicWalrus's Avatar .
    MajicWalrus spoke on Apr 21, 2005 at 09:14 PM
    Okay.

    Majic Walrus
    MajicWalrus's Avatar .
    MajicWalrus spoke on Apr 21, 2005 at 09:14 PM
    You must be.
    EuroTrash's Avatar .
    EuroTrash spoke on Apr 22, 2005 at 02:42 AM
    I wouldn't say North Korea is thriving, in fact the massive famines suggest otherwise, as for Cuba and china, they become more and more free market every year, china is really more of a communist state in name than action, yes they still have state controlled everything (almost) but thats far more fascist. Laos and Vietnam are societies that I'm not real familiar with, but I'm willing to wager they arn't topping any GDP lists
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 22, 2005 at 08:53 AM
    Now, here I didn't think that any of those countries were in play, what with you repudiating Soviet and Maoist style communism in favor of a Marxism closer to "the beginning."

    Let's examine each of those regimes briefly.

    China is in fact thriving, and is on a major economic upswing since it began to reinvent its economy a capitalist one in 1978. The conversion of its economy from a communist, centrally planned one to a capitalist, market driven one will likely propel China into a new ascendancy in the international sphere.
    Prior to China's conversion to capitalism, two programs aimed at making China a truly communist society, the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, killed at least 20,000,000 and displaced millions more.
    Unlike its communist economic system, China's communist regime is still in place even if it has abandoned the economic aspects of communism. The "Bamboo Gulag" still exists and is every bit as brutal as the original Soviet gulag. There is no political freedom in China and torture is practiced regularly.

    So yes, China is thriving, no thanks to communism.


    Cuba is a relative success story in the communist world in so far as it has survived in the United States' back yard for so long. However, since the collapse of the Soviet Union and the loss of the economic props that regime provided to Cuba the country has been in an economic depression, albeit one which is severely exacerbated by the U.S. embargo on Cuban trade. The Cuban solution to this problem has been to introduce limited capitalistic reforms. These have served to prop the economy up enough that the country can survive, however the reforms have been limited and unable to raise the standard to living much.
    According to the think tank Freedom House, Cuba is one of the least free countries in the world. The human rights situation in Cuba is deteriorating. There is no political freedom in Cuba and torture is practiced regularly.

    Thus, Cuba isn't exactly thriving, mostly because it's clung so stubbornly to communism.


    Laos is a very poor nation, but since it began converting to a capitalist economy in 1986 it has achieved striking economic growth.
    Laos has had a long civil conflict with its ethnic Hmong minority which some critics have argued amounts to outright genocide. There is no political freedom in Laos and torture is practiced regularly.

    So, Laos is not exactly thriving, but now that it's an essentially capitalist country it's GDP is growing like a weed. (5.5% in 2003)


    North Korea is starving to death. It is currently attempting to use nuclear weapons to blackmail the rest of the world into feeding it and propping up its tyrannical regime.
    North Korea maintains concentration camps which ought to have "Arbiten mact frei" written on the gates.

    If you believe that North Korea is thriving you need to get your head examined.


    Vietnam is another of the poorest countries in the world. It began to experiment with moving from a communist economy to a capitalist one in 1993 and achieved growth rates of 9% on average until the Asian Financial Crisis of 1997 spooked the government and caused it to end reforms. The growth in the GDP promptly dropped. In 2001 the communist party installed new leadership which has begun to work of making the economy a capitalist one again, and the GDP has begun to grow at rates similar to those of 1993-1997. (7.2% in 2003)
    Vietnam has recently cracked down on religious freedom, holds Soviet-era show trials, and generally enforces Soviet-style control of the population. There is no political freedom in Vietnam and torture is practiced regularly.

    Thus, Vietnam is not exactly thriving, but as it has become more capitalistic its situation has improved.



    Of these countries, the only ones which are "thriving" in any sense of the word are those which have gutted the communist economic system and replaced it with capitalism. The major vestige of the "dictatorship of the proletariat" which is present in all of them is an authoritarian or totalitarian regime, and frankly if it comes down to a choice between a poor nation where I have political liberty or a fat nation which I have none, well "give me liberty or give me death."

    Joe Cocomo
    MajicWalrus's Avatar .
    MajicWalrus spoke on Apr 22, 2005 at 09:15 PM
    I catch your drift, but when I say "thriving" I mean that they're still here, there are several poor poor poor capatilist countries but all these arguements are moot because the topic is really more of the idea of the system.

    The freedoms offered by a socialist country outweigh the benefits of living in a captalistic country because equality reigns over the few that are wealthy.
    's Avatar .
    Anonymous Coward spoke on Apr 24, 2005 at 11:11 AM
    I disagree with the idea you have more freedom under socialism, the idea is utter crap.

    Under capitalism you are free to move and work in whichever area you like - under socialism if a state is planning what everyon must have, then they must also plan it's production, you will be assigned a job, not choose if of your own volition.

    As the state is everything dissent is also not tolerated, look at all the examples you have given of communist countries, then look at the state of human rights in each of them, as I said simple things like freedom of movement, freedom of association, freedom of the press, on top of larger thigns like freedom from scarcity - did you know no democratic capitalist country has ever suffered from famine? try and claim the same for communism.

    Also when you persue trade countries become reliant on each other, to the extent that war is unthinkable, to paraphrase Bastiat, when goods don't cross borders, armies will. An example in the modern world? No two countries with a McDonalds presence have ever gone to war with each other. Communist countries are warlike, it's in the character.

    I recommend reading F. A. Hayek, The Road To Serfdom, or at least look at the cartoon version here [link]

    Again another point you have is misguided, you say there are poor capitalist countries, as if it proves capitalism is not better than socialism (neglecting the fact all communist countries are poor). Anyway Capitalism is not a magical cure for poverty, it will make people better off in the long term (and in the short term with freedom) but it does take time to develop capital and trade. Only an idiot would suggest an immediate conversion of socialism at any pooint will lead to an abundance of produce (especialyl since socialism doesn't work), but it is the same with capitlaism, countries that embrace it become better and better off, while countries which follow the route of national planning at best stagnate and at worst starve.

    You also say communist countries are thriving, as I understand thriving it means flourish, they are doing anything but, the best you can say later is they are still there. Not the same thing. What you also cannot see is how well they would be off if they had not followed false idols, an example from the Adam Smith Institute

    "Quiz Time - Treat yourself a fine Havana cigar after naming the small island subject to intermittent blockades, military intimidation, and a constant barrage of economic and diplomatic pressure by a neighbouring superpower.

    Light up that corona, senor, if you mentioned Taiwan. Okay, that or Cuba. Both were agricultural and desperately poor fifty and more years ago and both have faced pressure from superpowers - tiny, communist Cuba by the capitalist United States and tiny, capitalist Taiwan by the communist People's Republic of China. But the similarities stop there.

    In 1960, Taiwan's per capita income was about a measly $150 while Cubans were more than twice as wealthy, estimated at almost $400. Today, Taiwan's per capita income is $23,500 and still growing, while Cuba's is only $2900. Why?

    Taiwan always gave its citizens enormous economic freedom, then in the past 25 years made itself into a vibrant democracy. Cuba offers virtually no economic freedom and no democracy at all. So Taiwanese relax in the same holiday resorts that you visit, while the Cubans cannot go anywhere unless they steal a leaky boat and paddle toward Florida.

    In other words, the Taiwanese are free to manufacture goods and provide services that the rest of the world wants (read the label on your microchip), and the world rewards them with well-deserved wealth. Meanwhile Cubans are pretty much serfs and vassals of Senor Castro and his communista bureaucrats, and an island full of poor, teenaged girls try to sell themselves to middle-aged French waiters on cheapo package holidays.

    Next time the parlour-pinks and limousine-lefties whine about US-Cuban relations, ask them why Cuba isn't as rich as Taiwan."

    Also noone appears to have heard of the work of Ludwig von Mises, who wrote back in 1920 or so why communism is actually impossible. owing to it's lack o factor prices, the book is called 'Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth' a link is here [link] the argument however can be summed up in the postscript, [link] I recommend you read this as at least you are aware of relavent literature.

    In short communism is worse in ever sense, people are poorer, less free, and the authority of the state is regularly wielded to crush dissent, with the frequent trashing of human rights and murdering of citizens. As it is backed by force communism is also the less moral alternative of the two. But in persuit of equality is it all worth it? it was either Lenin or Stalin that said 'you can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs' on the millions of peasent deaths. Such a casual dismissal of peopels lives, everything they have, is typical of communism.

    The fact you can endorse it at all shocks/sickens me.
    MajicWalrus's Avatar .
    MajicWalrus spoke on Apr 24, 2005 at 05:53 PM
    Joe Cocomo.
    MajicWalrus's Avatar .
    MajicWalrus spoke on Apr 24, 2005 at 06:00 PM
    If you point is to say that Communist countries have failed in the past then you've acomplished that, just like Capitalist countries have fallen. My point and belief is not in countries who have failed attempts at a Socialistic economy my belief is in the idea and concept. If it worked then it would be perfect, and I am one of the many people who will continue to cause the evolution of the system.

    And I thought it was Hunter Thompson that said "you can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs"/
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 25, 2005 at 12:36 PM
    (If you're attempting to sign the above diatribe for me, I assure you that it isn't mine; I've been away from my computer since Friday evening.)

    Joe Cocomo
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 25, 2005 at 01:05 PM
    So by "thriving communist societies" you mean "communist societies which have not imploded in ignominy?" That's hardly a stunning endorsement.

    Since when is "the topic is really more of the idea of the system?" The original story was an indictment of capitalism based upon its real-world effects. I rebutted this by citing the real-world failures of communism and the relative success of real-world capitalism. In rebuttal you made the claim that there are real-world "communistic societies" which are thriving. I constructed a rebuttal based on the real-world economic and social conditions in those countries. The discussion thus far hasn't covered a lot of theoretical or ideological ground.

    "The freedoms offered by a socialist country outweigh the benefits of living in a capitalistic country because equality reigns over the few that are wealthy?" I'm sure that you wouldn't believe that quite so fiercely should somebody hook a car battery to your nuts in any of the countries we just examined. As I said, "there is no political freedom in (any of them) and torture is practiced regularly." Furthermore, you'll have difficulty getting me to believe that the members of the respective politburos of the world's communist countries live at the same level as the average, every-day comrades.


    Further, allow me to be clear; I am not arguing in favor of capitalism. Just Sunday, I went to Mass at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York City, and on the steps of the cathedral in the richest city on earth was a man digging through the garbage eating whatever scraps of food he could find there. Any system which allows that is evil and immoral. I am only arguing that capitalism is a superior system to communism, not that capitalism is somehow "good" in and of itself.

    If you want to talk about theory, then fine, let's talk about theory. I reject state communism for the same reason that I reject fascism; both, in the words of Benito Mussolini, are "the union of state and corporate power." When il Duce said that he was only referring to his own political system, fascism, however it applies to communist systems as well in so far as corporate governance is controlled by, and thus concentrated in, a central bureaucracy. The nature of the man is fallen, and power corrupts; Any system which so concentrates power is destiny-bound to degrade the rights of man and bring only misery to the people who live under it.
    I further object to communism for its repudiation of political rights. This is one of the key features of communism as we knew it throughout the late 19th and 20th centuries. The major reason which Marxist communism won out over the competing Utopian and Blanc varieties of communism was his synthesis of communist economic ideas and the political idea of "the dictatorship of the proletariat." Thus, any attempt at Marxism as Marx envisioned it is inexorably bound up with the end of political freedom for "class enemies," that is to say anybody who disagrees with the accepted version of communism. Why would I, as a free man, want to give up my freedom?

    That said, I believe that unchecked capitalism is dangerous in and of itself, as corporations begin to act as private governments, degrade the quality of our republic, and are ultimately corrosive to our freedoms. I do not believe that they are nearly as dangerous as an ideology which officially repudiates those freedoms, which include "life, liberty and property." (Locke's original formulation; the American founding fathers altered it to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness so as not to have to insure that poor people had property.)

    Joe Cocomo
    's Avatar .
    Anonymous Coward spoke on Apr 25, 2005 at 02:32 PM
    So in all the socialist countries out there (most of europe), the government assigns everybody their jobs? Please.
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 25, 2005 at 03:29 PM
    If I recall correctly it was some now-obscure journalist for the New York Times during the 30's in reference to the (at that time merely rumored) deaths caused by Josef Stalin's regime. Though it is the sort of phrase/concept Hunter Thompson would be fond of, I think.

    Joe Cocomo
    's Avatar .
    Anonymous Coward spoke on Apr 25, 2005 at 04:07 PM
    Sorry I forgot to sign it, I'm used to being logged in on forums.

    Anthony
    MajicWalrus's Avatar .
    MajicWalrus spoke on Apr 25, 2005 at 09:45 PM
    Yeah, he might have said it afterwards.
    's Avatar .
    Anonymous Coward spoke on Apr 26, 2005 at 07:20 AM
    Yes but according to your tin-foil-hat fear of anything remotely uncapitalist, a moderate socialist measure such as building checks and balances into capitalism is just unacceptably socialist to you, and therefore worth calling supporters of such ideas as USSR sympathists who want to impose genocidal scourge upon us all! You need to learn how to stop making false associations.
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 26, 2005 at 09:53 AM
    Where did you get that from? As you will note in my post of April 19th I advocate unionization and legislative checks upon corporate power. Without such checks capitalism is a dangerous system which will eventually lead to human misery.

    Furthermore, I don't think that the association of Marxist ideas with genocide is a false one, but we've already beat the historical facts to death sans effect.
    's Avatar .
    Anonymous Coward spoke on Apr 26, 2005 at 10:30 AM
    legislative checks on corporate power is an evil evil socialist move which can only lead to genocide eventually. At least, thats what it must assume, if we are to believe that philosophies which have nothing to do with promoting genocide will inexorably lead to it always, given the 100 years its been tried versus the thousands of years humans have spent perfecting capitalism and democracy. I'm still not sure why you think a different economic structure would somehow delete the constitution with its spelled-out inalienable rights. Its function should stay the same, and be democratic.
    JoeCocomo's Avatar .
    JoeCocomo spoke on Apr 26, 2005 at 06:46 PM
    [link]
    's Avatar .
    Anonymous Coward spoke on Apr 26, 2005 at 07:47 PM
    No, but then again countries in Europe aren't socialist, they are social democracies, a big difference, they have capitalism, but restrained (very much so), redistributive taxation and a 'progressive' income tax.

    Socialism, is like like in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics where the state controls everything, including, yes where you work. Some choice may be availale, but ultimately it's upto the state, unlike under capitalism where nobody owns you.

    Social Democracies (France, Germany, etc.) through the amount of legislation, employment law and taxes have problems of their own however. In Germany there are over 5 million unemployed, 12.6% of the labour force.

    Anthony
    MajicWalrus's Avatar .
    MajicWalrus spoke on Apr 27, 2005 at 05:06 AM
    The USSR was not a socialist state despite the name.
    daydreamtime's Avatar .
    daydreamtime spoke on Apr 30, 2005 at 08:40 PM
    Communisn is great! FOR SLAVES! If you want to have the government tell you what to do, if you want for 1/3 of your society to be elevated whle the rest stand in line for toilet paper. If you want to close up you bussiness and stand in the bread line because you dare do a little better than someone else, be a communist. Equality is all fine and dandy except it isn't the nature of the human condition, we are not all the same. We deserve the same rights, but the chances to use those rights and profit on them should be left free and solely the choice of the individual.
    MennoniteBoy's Avatar .
    MennoniteBoy spoke on May 01, 2005 at 07:07 PM
    BOOOO!
    I think facism is much more effective, then democracy would be the next best.
    dick's Avatar .
    dick spoke on Jun 25, 2005 at 09:44 PM
    Communism can suck my dick.

    Post A Comment

    Posting as: Anonymous Coward. Please log in or register.

    You are not logged in so I need to know that you are not a spam bot.
    Type 6 x's into this field: