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    The American Flag
    Posted by bapow1 on Apr 26, 2004 at 09:54 AM

    Comments

    jumboguy's Avatar .
    jumboguy spoke on Apr 26, 2004 at 12:58 PM
    .... for getting K4's rant page off of here.
    Numnuts's Avatar .
    Numnuts spoke on Apr 26, 2004 at 01:06 PM
    Great info: on the history of the US Flag.
    MajicWalrus's Avatar .
    MajicWalrus spoke on Apr 26, 2004 at 03:02 PM
    Good info.
    Killforfunandforfree's Avatar .
    Killforfunandforfree spoke on Apr 27, 2004 at 12:15 AM
    Yeah okay Jumbo....
    Killforfunandforfree's Avatar .
    Killforfunandforfree spoke on Apr 27, 2004 at 12:17 AM
    Cool article Bapow... thanks for taking the time to put that all together. Very informative!
    Ender's Avatar .
    Ender spoke on Apr 27, 2004 at 03:35 AM
    It's rare today to see anyone paying the flag its proper respects. I feel sorry for people who feel the need to degrade it by burning, stomping, etc. It only shows their own lack of maturity. It's not necessary to burn a flag to protest something; it only shows a willingness to shock where persuasion would be better suited.

    I disagree with the 'hate crime' line at the bottom, but that's only because I disagree in principle with the whole 'hate crime' mindset. I don't think a law is necessary; a squad of ***-beating patriots (preferably war veterans) should typically suffice. The flag-burning-hippie-beating death squad should be codified into law as a 'Hate Service'. ;)

    (Oops, I think I just started a flame war. If so, apologies.)
    Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
    Reverend Jynxed spoke on Apr 27, 2004 at 11:43 AM
    I wouldn't go to such extremes.

    I think people should follow the rules set forth regarding the flag etc. If you are to treat the flag respectfully you don't have the right to burn it. (Shouldn't for all you pedantic little fuckers that are ready to jump on this.)

    If the thing you are trying to do breaks the rules it shouldn't be allowed. Find another way to speak your mind. Perhaps... I dunno... a SPEECH?!?

    The only time a flag should be burned is when it is retired in ceremony. Just because there aren't any fines or punishment involved doesn't make it ok to break the rules. But since assholes aboud maybe it's time they put into place punishment for breaking the rules set forth. Fines would be appropriate as well as restricting repeat offenders from flying the nation's flag.

    Failing that perhaps they should turn loose all the veterans who fought for this country onto all the filthy stinking hairy hippies and express themslves as they see fit. A swift kick to the nuts should be considered free speech since words cannot suffice in those situations.

    If you can burn the flag because you hate the nation I should be able to burn your balls because I hate you. Barring that I'll kill your dog.
    ChePibe's Avatar .
    ChePibe spoke on Apr 28, 2004 at 02:23 AM
    Just killing off a few useless reservists would be better... They're useless and more of them need to die anyways, right Rev?

    Wow, I'd hate to see a flag-burning reservist, Rev's greatest nightmare.
    ChePibe's Avatar .
    ChePibe spoke on Apr 28, 2004 at 02:42 AM
    To see people that have and fly a flag mishandle it in a basic way. I don't think they're unpatriotic or being intentionally disrespectful towards the flag, just uneducated when it comes to proper handling.

    The most basic example I've seen of this is improper folding. Granted, if you're alone it's not easy to fold a flag properly, but when a second person is available you should make an effort. You might not make it a perfectly tight, military-type fold, but you could try for something close.

    Even with that, though, I think it's because most people just don't know how to fold a flag properly. They've seen it on TV, and they know it involves a triangle shape at the end, but they're just not sure how to get there. It's one of those things you either learn at home or in, say, Boy Scouts, but not everyone can learn it there.

    Maybe we could teach it in the schools? I have no doubt that this would create a huge string of legal battles between those whose religion prevents them from doing so and the US, but maybe it could be done as part of a US History lesson that teaches the history of the flag? I'm sure this idea has a great many flaws, but maybe has some merit.

    It's also interesting to note the great deal of emphasis Americans place on their flag. Most other countries are nowhere near as picky when it comes to proper flag handling. Those I've spoken to from outside the US about it (a few Europeans, some Latin Americans, a pair of Koreans, and a South African) generally saw it as a positive thing, while a very small minority thought it a bit silly.

    The only other customs I know regarding the treatment of flags come from Argentina. They don't fold their flag, for example, but lay it completely flat while not on display. They also bury their flag instead of burning it for retirement. I'd have to do more research into finding out why, especially after finding out so much interesting information in this report.

    I personally think it's important to respect the flag, but also what it stands for, especially the ideal of freedom. I'm glad the Supreme Court ruled in favor of flag burning. True, it's inflamatory, but when it comes down to it, it's an act of expression that merits the protection of the first ammendment.

    This is a great article, I learned a lot from it. Thanks!
    's Avatar .
    Anonymous Coward spoke on Apr 28, 2004 at 09:41 AM
    I find it interesting that the flag burners (stompers, whatever) seem to be the ones that scram the loudest when they think their "rights as an American" have somehow been violated. It's a pretty basic tenet, in my never humble opinion: If you feel a need to desecrate the symbol of our great nation, pack up your shit and leave! Certainly, the old excuse offered to that solution is almost always, "I have no place to go!" Not to worry, there are plenty of Americans who will not only tell you where to go but will be happy to help you get here. We could just build "refugee rafts" and give you a push out to sea - that's about what you deserve anyway. You sure as hell don't deserve all the good that this country offers you. No, the USA isn't perfect and it never will be but throwing out all the flag burning losers would help make it a better place.
    ChePibe's Avatar .
    ChePibe spoke on Apr 28, 2004 at 10:58 AM
    Oh, wait... no, it says we have the right to free speech and epxression whether for or against the government.

    Yeah, you're right. Respecting a symbol of the nation and deporting those who don't respect it is far more important than respecting the highest laws of a nation.... sure...

    If you're so concerned about flag burners, then join the movement to pass an anti-flag-burning ammendment to the constitution. Otherwise, realize it's been ruled constitutional by the US Supreme Court and, as such, enjoys constitutional sanction unless you seek to change the constitution itself.
    Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
    Reverend Jynxed spoke on Apr 28, 2004 at 11:32 AM
    Ahhh the smell of red herring in the morning.

    You boy, are a fucktard.
    Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
    Reverend Jynxed spoke on Apr 28, 2004 at 11:37 AM
    " It's one of those things you either learn at home or in, say, Boy Scouts, but not everyone can learn it there."

    I learned it in school.

    "Maybe we could teach it in the schools? I have no doubt that this would create a huge string of legal battles between those whose religion prevents them from doing so and the US, but maybe it could be done as part of a US History lesson that teaches the history of the flag?"

    Legal battles involving religion when it is a part of our Nation? What religion prevents you from following the rules of handling a flag properly?

    *blink*

    "True, it's inflamatory, but when it comes down to it, it's an act of expression that merits the protection of the first ammendment. "

    Then so does expressing myself by burning a cross (Not that I would but I should be free to do so) The double standard is there. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

    Yep, the Hens on the supreme court are unbiased and fair in their rulings. :rolleyes:
    ChePibe's Avatar .
    ChePibe spoke on Apr 28, 2004 at 11:42 AM
    Who refused to serve his country and now thinks more reservists should die because they do nothing is once again going to argue about patriotism?

    According to globalsecurity.org:

    "...more than 70 percent of all medical units in the Army of the United States are reserve units."

    Yeah, but who needs a medic? Nobody in the military wants 'em... they're just cowards, after all.

    "Until recently, soldiers serving on active duty usually had little or no interaction with other soldiers in the Reserve Component (RC). The general consensus throughout the barracks, motor pools and conference rooms of the "real" Army was that most "weekend warriors" played cards during drills, needed haircuts and generally did not meet the standards of the professional soldier on active duty.

    Nothing could be further from the truth. As the Berlin wall fell in Germany in 1989 and signaled the end of the Cold War, the US Army began reshaping itself for the challenges of the 21st Century. These changes placed US Army Reserve (USAR) and Army National Guard (ARNG) forces directly in the line of fire. Reserve Component (RC) soldiers responded with pride, professionalism and tons of success. Buzz words such as "Power Projection," "Operations Other Than War" (OOTW) and "Force XXI" all have critical links to the increasing role that reservists play on today’s battlefield. Operations such as Desert Storm, Just Cause, and Joint Endeavor prove that Active and Reserve Component forces will not be successful without one another. "

    Yeah, you're some patriot, Rev. Won't serve your country because they won't let you be a "Ranger" (right...), and won't serve in the reserves or support them (as a matter of fact, you want more of them to DIE) because they're just weekend wariors.

    What an unpatriotic swine.
    ChePibe's Avatar .
    ChePibe spoke on Apr 28, 2004 at 11:50 AM
    The Jehovah's Witnesses are very much opposed to anything that supports a state or allegiance to it. This includes saluting the flag, and most likely proper flag handling/folding. I'm sure there would be others (mostly extremist religious Christian groups, although I'm sure others would throw in as well) who would object, as well.

    Oh, but I bet you've "studied" about them, too. Sure you have.

    I'm glad to hear it has at least been taught in some schools. What school did you attend?

    Cross burning was ruled AGAINST because of its precedent as a device for intimidation and inciting violence within the US, particularly the south. There IS NO SUCH PRECEDENT for flag burning, even though in your little imaginary world there might be. No one has gone out in front of, say, a military barracks or a federal building, burned a flag there, and then blown it up or killed someone, using the flag burning as a warning. This happened with cross burning, leading to its banning on public property.
    's Avatar .
    Anonymous Coward spoke on May 01, 2004 at 12:24 AM
    somebodys little obsession has gotten a lot of people killed.
    blackelixiroflife's Avatar .
    blackelixiroflife spoke on May 01, 2004 at 01:06 AM
    Actually, if Rev really wants to serve as a Ranger I know of at least three units that are all Spec Ops reserve units. They are far more common now than when I served (15 years).

    I don't know what kind of people they take, but the PT test has to be passed at a minimum of 75-80% of standard. And you get to serve with all the super troopers. High Speed, Low Drag.

    There is actually at least 1 Ranger Reserve unit. But if I recall correctly they are based in Wash. State. But no matter, Spec Ops teams in the USAR are all over the place. Civil Affrs is a common one.
    bapow1's Avatar .
    bapow1 spoke on May 01, 2004 at 08:07 PM
    Somebody's little troll has no clue.
    Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
    Reverend Jynxed spoke on May 02, 2004 at 11:36 PM
    Perhaps a kick to the ass would get your brain working again.


    "This includes saluting the flag, and most likely proper flag handling/folding."

    That means you don't handle it then. Gee that was really tough to figure out huh?

    As for the witnesses not supporting the state or anything of the like... do they realize they have no choice? Do they realize they are participating by simply living here? I can understand the opposition to the "ceremony" or the "ritual" of things and that's fine. However no one is forcing them to do it. Simply refrain from it.

    "Oh, but I bet you've "studied" about them, too. Sure you have."

    I've studied about quite a few religions and philosophies. However with all the different sects and denominations and cults that call themselves Christian (take mormons) it's hard to be a scholar of them all. I know enough, it is only proper to "know thy enemy" to battle him.

    "I'm glad to hear it has at least been taught in some schools. What school did you attend?"

    The firsttime I learned about it was Alva A Scott elementary in Hawaii. It was in the 1st or 2nd grade. The next in 8th grade Social Studies at La Paz intermediate in Mission Viejo California.

    "Cross burning was ruled AGAINST because of its precedent as a device for intimidation and inciting violence within the US, particularly the south."

    Burning a flag is threatening and a fear tactic as well.

    "There IS NO SUCH PRECEDENT for flag burning, even though in your little imaginary world there might be."

    Yes there is. The fact that even you mentioned the majority were opposed says so. However the double standard won out and it isn't recognized by the assholes in power.

    "No one has gone out in front of, say, a military barracks or a federal building, burned a flag there, and then blown it up or killed someone, using the flag burning as a warning."

    I see so that will be the only way someone would consider it threatening or hateful? Interesting. I wouldn't think it would require something so drastic considering how soft the fucking libs are. Oh wait... that's because they have their own bias and standards set for what is and isn't acceptable. Heaven forbid you step on their toes when they stomp all over everyone else's. My bad.

    If someone was burning a cross on their own land they would still be in a shit storm because of it. If anyone is threatened by it (in their head) the person "threatening" them gets shafted. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, ban PUBLIC burning of flags as well. It is a scare/intimidation tactic used to incite strong feelings in people. If it wasn't supposed to evoke strong feelings the fuckers wouldn't use it.
    Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
    Reverend Jynxed spoke on May 02, 2004 at 11:39 PM
    Washington state is the home of the 2nd Batt. I have had to opportunite to talk with few Rangers who are reservists now. They don't like it because it's a clusterfuck. They try to stay away from the regs as much as possible.
    blackelixiroflife's Avatar .
    blackelixiroflife spoke on May 03, 2004 at 03:36 PM
    Well, true enough there are units that are better than others. Not all of them are the same and painting them with the same brush isn't exactly fair. The units I spoke of are all quality units and are all difficult to get into because of that. That said, it isn't impossible to get into them. And while the 2nd is in Washington they aren't the only Bn with reserve spec ops units in state.

    As I recall you are in FL, right? There are boatloads of units at McDill. It's an AFB but that doesn't mean they don't take Army folks. They take from several branches of military services, if not from all. They are headed under a USA one star, can't recall the new guy's name but he signed on about a year ago I think. You may not get a Ranger slot but there are lots of others that are very similar and have the same mission parameters as Ranger.
    the frickin man's Avatar .
    the frickin man spoke on May 03, 2004 at 05:02 PM
    I don't get to this site too often any longer, being in the Navy and all, but when I do, it's usually "blah blah blah, baby killers, Bush is an Asshole..." and that really pisses me off. I do enjoy when certain people actually have facts backing up their opinions. This article was very refreshing for me. I actually learned several things as well.

    Every six days (in fact just yesterday) I am on the Colors detail in my duty section. My friend and I are in charge of raising and lowering the ensign and a POW / MIA pennant and a Meritorious Unit Citation pennant for NAVSUBSCOL. We cerimoniously conduct colors at 0800 and sunset and raise pennants at sunrise. This position is very sought after and I proudly perform my duty.

    In conclusion, thank you for teaching me new things about the flag and for letting others learn as well.
    ChePibe's Avatar .
    ChePibe spoke on May 03, 2004 at 05:09 PM
    "This includes saluting the flag, and most likely proper flag handling/folding."

    That means you don't handle it then. Gee that was really tough to figure out huh?

    As for the witnesses not supporting the state or anything of the like... do they realize they have no choice? Do they realize they are participating by simply living here? I can understand the opposition to the "ceremony" or the "ritual" of things and that's fine. However no one is forcing them to do it. Simply refrain from it.


    The post above referred to it as a "requirement". The pledge is already under enough attack (granted, for different reasons), throwing in additional classes on proper flag handling procedures, though something I agree with, would certainly ignite yet another firestorm and be seen as a diversion from the main issue.

    "There IS NO SUCH PRECEDENT for flag burning, even though in your little imaginary world there might be."

    Yes there is. The fact that even you mentioned the majority were opposed says so. However the double standard won out and it isn't recognized by the assholes in power.

    Is there? Find evidence of it, then post.

    ban PUBLIC burning of flags as well. It is a scare/intimidation tactic used to incite strong feelings in people. If it wasn't supposed to evoke strong feelings the fuckers wouldn't use it.

    There is a big difference between provoking strong emotions and threatening people with lynching. If you cand find a precedent of, say, a flag being burned outside of a present or former employee of the federal government that directly proceeded the murder or assault of that employee, then post it. Otherwise, you've got nothing to go on.

    Courts base rulings on precedent, not pure opinion. Find a previous case of a flag burning that fits the same situation as the cross burning cases have, and then post it.

    Also, I fail to see the harm in burning/destroying something that is my own public property in whatever way I see fit. If I am the owner of a flag, and I walk out and burn it in my own backyard, or even in a protest where city ordinances allow for public burnings, what, precisely, is the problem?

    Or do you not believe in my right to hold property?
    RickySilk's Avatar .
    RickySilk spoke on May 05, 2004 at 11:14 AM
    Good to hear from you, how's Navy life treating you? Sounds like things are going well.
    the frickin man's Avatar .
    the frickin man spoke on May 15, 2004 at 07:55 PM
    Woah, it's nice to hear fron you as well, ricky. How many times have you changed your avitar now?

    Anyhow, Navy life is good. I'm almost finished with my training; the end of July I report to the USS Springfield SSN 761. It's based in Groton, CT which is nice because it's not too far from my hometown. Things are going well, I'm first in my class and now have been here so long that I'm amongst the "old timers" of this base... meaning that i've been at NAVSUBSCOL for over six months. My teachers are cool and they know the people on my boat and will put in a good word for me. My only thing is that I have a roommate who listens to country music and snores louder than if a chainsaw and a lawnmower got into a fight to see who was noisier... if that's even a word. Anyway, I'm out, so I'll write more soon.
    's Avatar .
    Anonymous Coward spoke on May 16, 2004 at 12:47 PM
    In the navy
    's Avatar .
    Anonymous Coward spoke on Oct 10, 2004 at 11:01 PM
    Like rumsfeld the hard core troll?

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