I've been saying that North Korea needed to be taken care of for years now. Since everyone justifies the whole Iraq war with human rights now I think our times would have been better spent in N. Korea. The suffering and repression of the people there is in my eyes far worse than what had been going on in Iraq. Also, believe that we (the US) have more solid proof that N. Korea has WMD and than we did for Iraq. Hell N. Korea is test-firing mid-range missiles nuclear capable missiles in our direction.

Here is more on the suffering of the N. Koreans [link] The part that disturbs me most is how they inject women who are about to have a child with salty water. This is to abort the child. Not that this is horrible enough, but they make the women carry the child for almost 9 months before doing it. If we were to goto war with N. Korea, I would not hesitate a second to join in on the fight over there.

Yes but won't the libs whine if we "invade" N. Korea to help them?

We should have taken care of N. Korea during the first war just like we should have taken care of Saddam during the first war.

Yes, things suck for the people of N. Korea. Yes, they've been developing some nasty weapons, but we need to look at the cost vs the benefit.

N. Korea has a huge military poised along the DMZ, consisting of roughly 1 million men and thousands of artillery pieces in range of Seoul. Any attack would likely result in thousands of civilian casualties in South Korea. While the US, with our highly trained soldiers and advanced weaponry, can defeat anyone on the planet, the sheer number of artillery and anti-aircraft weapons held by N. Korea would mean many US casualties. In other words, the military and civilian losses would be far higher than anything we've experienced in Iraq.

Benefit: While N. Korea indirectly supports terrrorism by selling weapons to countries that directly support terrorists... well, so did the French and Chinese. While they use the threat of force against S. Korea as a bargaining tool, they don't appear eager to invade anybody. While a N. Korean democracy would benefit the US in the long term, there already exist democracies in the region; N. Korea is largely an island unto itself.

Finally- and perhaps most importantly- while N. Korea spends plenty of effort "saber rattling", they aren't likely to try and get their way through direct military action. They're simply looking for financial aid to support their dying regime. In this case (unlike Iraq, for example), diplomatic measures such as sanctions and foreign aid have a good chance of being productive. True, they didn't stick to the last deal we gave them, but again they're basically looking to extort more money out of the US.

As much as we in the US would like to see the horrific human-rights abuses in N. Korea come to an end and to have democracy replace dictatorship, we simply can not and should not fix all the problems that exist in this world, especially when the costs- in human life and financial- would be so high.

If we were to attack N. Korea, I suspect that the only way to minimize military and civilian casualties would be to employ tactical nukes- something that would be hard to justify politically.

For info on N. Korea artillery that is in range of Seoul: [link]
Note that N. Korea could fire 300,000-500,000 rounds PER HOUR against Seoul, many of which could be loaded with chemical weapons.

N. Korea sucks.

Agreed on the first time around in N. Korea and Iraq.

Unfotunately you are right, but it still makes me sick (the treatment of N. Korea's people). Let's see what happens when one of those trial shots makes it closer to California.

Yes well we can avoid our casualties.

Jimmy mentioned nukes. Well we could show them a few up close and personal like. Hell, a few neutron bombs to keep the physical damage to a minimum and you're golden.

We could justify it. We'll have some Specialist accidentally fall asleep at his post thus hitting the big red button with his forehead. Or we could just say, "oops, our bad." Or we could say we were just showing him how real nukes work because their tests seems to be failing and going where they don't belong.

Nuke'em if you got'em. Failign that if nukes are such an issues, those MOABs would be a nice non-nuclear alternative. Physical damage would be high but they are effective.

This is ChePibe (as usual, too lazy to log in on campus) and I must say that was an EXCELLENT post, Hollowpoint!

You really ought to give the old Rev. some lessons...

Interesting. You are being a cunt right now why?

Oh, I disagree with your political views. I see. Go fuck yourself pussy-boy.

There HAS to be an alternative.

As it stands, the U.S. in lingering too long in Iraq while Haiti, N. Korea and other hostile zones continue to degrade everyday.

Why?

Because the U.S. seems the safest and most cost effective way to show we're still boss is to make a former dictatorship and enemy back into our nice lil' compadre.

So why can't we do that in N. Korea? Take down the regime in the name of freedom, then install our own political bitch there.

No need for nukes... yet.

No need for nukes... yet.

If we want to avoid a major amount of "friendly" casualties including casualties to our troops we would need the nukes.

There would be a hugh casualty rate if we sent troops over there to start another war. It would include civilians as the N. Koreans would have no problem firing into the midst of S. Korea just to make life miserable for everyone involved. The dictator of N. Korea is psychotic.

It would be nice if we didn't have a rule about assassinations.

I have been pretty busy at my office today so I haven't been able to reply to everything but basically my thoughts are this:

When it comes to somebody actually beating women and children, ie the Taliban, Kim Jong Il, Pedophiles... whatever the case may be... fuck their oil, fuck their threats of nuclear war... and most definitely fuck being diplomatic.... Just fuckin KILL EM.... sayanora mutherfucker.

I blatantly admit to being pretty for out there but there just isn't anything at all that is diplomatic about treating any human this way and just so you know... I lost the right to judge people a long, long, time ago... but this isn't about me... it's about the people that suffer unspeakable crimes on a daily basis. I don't know what you did today when you first woke, as for me I had a cup of coffee and a cigarette and called Russia. Why? Because I can. I sure as hell wasn't being tortured because my neighbor fled the damn country. I don't think that is very polite. Bad way to wake up. Even for children.

I learned on this site a few months ago that we are TECHNICALLY still at war with N. Korea, in that case we can't really invade so much as we are already at a state of war with them.

But I actually agree with you, as much as war sucks, it's better that we stop them now before the tension gets too high.

You're one of those noble save the world anti-hero types aren't you? You're like a character from a movie.

Seriously though I think I agree with you more now that you put it that way, goes beyond laws and rules to morality and service to humankind.

Just looking at this thread, you've posted nothing of significant substance.

Granted, a lot of it was funny and sarcastic in nature, and I respect that, but Hollowpoint's thread contained a great deal of factual information about why going to war with North Korea wouldn't be a wise idea.

You joked about nukes, MOABs, and people bumping their heads on buttons.

Basically, you said the same thing any FOX news military analyst would have, but that's another story for another thread...

I don't quite see the point in attacking me here... but, if all you can muster is a bit of name-calling, so be it.

The US has very, very little interest in Haiti other than keeping its refugees off of our shores.

North Korea would retaliate against South Korea with a huge show of force (potentially WMD) and would end up killing a huge number of South Korean civilians before we finally won. Unacceptable loses.

Iraq wasn't exactly in a position to attack our allies in the region when we invaved, and we did have interests in stabalizing that part of the world and keeping the WMD we thought they were producing out of the wrong hands.

That's the reader's digest version, at least.

A small component of nuclear deterrent during the Cold War was the prospect of a nuclear missile "accidentally" being launched because of bad communication between the civilian commander-in-chief and the military bureaucracy.

Although I can't exactly make out a well-thought out argument on this point as to why it was a deterrent factor, I do remember thinking at the time that the concept was interesting.

So, congrats to the Reverend. He inadvertently stumbled on Cold War nuclear deterrence policy. Any wonder how we got out alive?

Oh yeah, and good luck with the wedding. :yay: We at Kungfoo are still waiting for our invitations. ;) Or the least you can do is write an editorial on your wedding; its only the day most men dread more than death.

That I would really like you if we were ever in the same place at the same time. I hate injustice as much as it may seem that this hasn't always been the case. I love to see people smile, live and thrive. I love to see people eating scrambled eggs and drinking orange juice in the morning sun breathing fresh salt air down at Venice Beach. I believe in doing something that you love for a job rather than doing something that makes alot of money. I am an antihero but I am also an idealist and even though this seldom suits the ways of the world it doesn't mean that I can't hope. I just love people and just to quell any smart ass remarks from the peanut gallery, (No. I am definitely heterosexual.) I've seen alot of bad things and I like to see people flourish and be happy and my only real regret about my past is that I can't give my life for THIS country. I still have hopes of going to the French Foriegn Legion. I just have to have a tooth I lost in a fight fixed and they will accept me. I think that there is nothing more nobel than giving my life for someone else so they might be happy and though I devoutly despise government, in any form, I blatantly believe in the concepts of good and evil and right and wrong. Standing up for what I think is right and just and giving my life for them if need be, is what I feel defines me as a man and is what I think my purpose is on this earth. It sure as hell is alot more important than selling toner and computers. I hope your night is going as well as mine is. Dayvid

Crap. Not to be flattering but I think you are what most people wish that they were. Noble, honest, idealistic, anti-hero, tainted past, looking to right wrongs where ever you find them, near Batman and Punisher...

You hate government but are willing to support anything that is good for the good. You need to write a book.

And I have a feeling that if I met you somewhere... I think I'd know it.

I think there is an official cease-fire and we are not at war. We have promised to protect S. Korea though and that is why we are still there. I could be wrong though.

I think there is an official cease-fire and we are not at war. We have promised to protect S. Korea though and that is why we are still there. I could be wrong though.

Indeed. Otherwise we could technically go in and assassinate the twit running N. Korea as an act of war and it would be legal.

Too bad we can't.

Even so, it would take a long time with a new leader with very different views to change things. Once the fucktard is gone one of his subordinates will take his place and do as he was taught thus continuing the cycle.

Unless you wipe them all out you can rebuild properly. A few properly placed tactical nukes would go a long way in fixing that problem and the real estate would be very cheap :eyemouth:

You joked about nukes, MOABs, and people bumping their heads on buttons.

Those weren't jokes.

I don't quite see the point in attacking me here... but, if all you can muster is a bit of name-calling, so be it.

Hmmm an eye for an eye comes to mind. You wanted to pipe in and throw my name in there as an attack. I'm sorry the obvious goes right past you and I'm sorry you can't handle taking what you dish out.

You offered nothing to debate against so what else was there to respond with? You just threw out a little jab and expect what in return? You are a snile little fuck that has a lot of learning to do.

My suggestion:
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You are a dumb mother fucker, mother fucker.

I really like it when people have something intelligent to say not that I am anyone to impress. I just appreciate it is all. I have know doubt that there would be severe S. Korean casualties yet what type of message are we sending when we let this go on unabated? What are we as a people, and by this I mean mankind in general, saying to the N. Koreans or anyone else that would commit these kinds of atrocities?

Consider the Jewish communities of Europe circa 1930-1945 or even 40 million (approximate) Soviets that were exterminated during the Stalinist era. These people aren't cockroaches, (N.Korean civilians).

I was reading in another one of your posts that you have just procurred a new .45 caliber handgun. I somehow get the impression that you would use it and perhaps even give your life to protect someone in need and my point is this.

Although there would be severe casualties across the board, undoubtedly so, however if there is nothing done as to the way the North Korean government currently and has for years, conducted itself, people that have done absolutely nothing continue to suffer. If there are people that die liberating these people, at least they die for a cause. The loss of life that currently goes on in North Korea is simply a waste. People that die so that others might have the rights and comforts that all should have, this, my friend, is never a waste.

Anytime there are places or cities within a country that one is expressly, NOT allowed to visit, there is a great big red flag that goes up in my head and I don't even want to hear the north Korean's excuse of protecting the state secrets and national security. Excellent article and perhaps being that you are currently employed with the DOD you might persuade some of your peers perhaps to involving the U.S. there.

Given the great amount of casualties that would be incurred by warring with the North Koreans, I have but one question to ask.

What is more terrible? The loss of life or the perpetual suffering of that life, or any other? Meaning, I would rather die but once (we all will ultimately), than suffer the way that even women and children suffer everyday and what was their crime? Nothing. I know that you aren't saying that they deserve this. I am just throwing some stuff in here for others to read as well.

Thank you Bapow

Classic.... just beautiful!!!! Rev who said that you weren't a thing of beauty? LMAO

That would reproduce at an unbelievable rate AND throw poo at all the bad guys. They'd give up eventually.

Course that should have been snide and not snile but heh, I'm only human :D

According to some estimates, there would be around 100,000 US military casualites. Tack on another couple hundred thousand S. Korean military and civilian casualties and we're looking at over a QUARTER MILLION dead- likely more if nukes or chemical weapons are used- and that doesn't even include those that would be killed- both military and civilians- in N. Korea. I won't even guess at the financial costs, but it would almost certainly be far more expensive than the $100 billion we're spending in Iraq. [link]

Given that N. Korea isn't directly threatening the US and isn't likely to, the costs are far too high to solve what is essentially a N. Korean domestic problem. Sad the state of affairs may be, but it's just not our fight- not at the cost of tens of thousands of US lives. If the people of North Korea are suffering, it is the North Korean people who should fight and die for their own freedom.

If Americans were to fight and die to fix all the wrongs of this world, there'd be no more Americans left.

The first rule of DOD is, there is no DOD.

The second rule of DOD is, there IS NO DOD.


Heh.

Good question.... Truthfully, You made some damn good points and I, sadly, am unable to answer them. I can only answer for myself and it is worth my life. I want to thank you and a few other people around here for helping me clarify just what it is that I believe in.

I need to quit fucking around and get this damn tooth fixed so the French Foriegn Legion will accept me. Currently this is the only thing that stands in my way. I know that that won't necessarily give me the opportunity to go to N. Korea but it would give me the ability to combat injustice in other areas.

Everyday that I sit here and mess around I am wasting an opportunity to spread good. I really thank everyone.

Sorry about guessing your age incorrectly. You know the term of service in the FFL (see above) is 5 years. Perhaps when I come back... I will write that book and title it... "Spewing Faith and Fury... Yet Signifying Nothing"..... LOL I'll talk to you soon. I have a tooth to fix. I hope you are having a great day. Dayvid

For those who will want to get uppity, yes I know the quote is, "you do not talk about..."

Just saving us the hassle.

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth... that's rich, rev.

I honestly thought you were kidding about your grand military strategy...

Let's try to explain this to you:

Attacking the border with North Korea with a huge number of MOABs would be very ill advised. MOABs are carried by C-130 transport planes, which are known for their relatively low maintenance needs and long operational life-spans but not exactly well known for their speed, stealth, nor combat capability (with the exception of the two gunship variants which, incidentally, are incapable of carrying a MOAB).

I don' t think it would be a wise idea to fly a large, slow, lumbering plane over a combat zone filled with anti-aircraft artilery easily capable of knocking it down.

The use of nuclear or nuetron weapons would be very, very ill advised for a few reasons:

1. It is possible that North Korea has weapons that can reach the United States. I personally don't know whether the US has a first-strike capability or not, nor would I like to find out the hard way.

2. China most certainly has nuclear weapons that are capable of reaching the US. North Korea is conveniently right next door to China, and we don't want to send any false signals to a shaky ally.

3. The US Anti-Balisitic-Missle defense system is not yet operational. Even when it becomes operational, its effectiveness is still dubious. Most Americans would rather not risk losing something like, say, Seattle because we've decided to topple this particular regime. On the other hand, if the North Koreans promised to target San Francisco, it may meet with more support here in the US ;)

As far as a conventional military invasion, I think Hollowpoint laid that case out pretty eloquently, but I'll go over some highlights if you'd like:

1. North Korea has a million man army, and spends a greater portion of its GDP on its military (33.9%) than any other country on the planet (to give you an idea, the US spends roughly 3.2% and the second highest country on the list, Mali, spends 15% according to the CIA World Factbook). Granted, that 33.9% amounts to only a little over 5 billion (compared to 276.7 billion spent by the US), but the size of the proportion shows that North Korea is focused heavily on its military and little else.

2. If North Korea were to perform human wave attacks in an attack on South Korea (much like what happened in the Korean war), there would be no stopping them without the use of WMD. Granted, they would only win the battle, not the war. The military response from the US and other potential allies would quickly push them back, but at the loss of tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of South Korean civilians and potentially the destruction of Seoul. This is unacceptable to most policy makers.

Just keep in mind, North Korea KNOWS it can't win the war and I doubt that they would start one. It only wants to blackmail, not conquer. Unfortunately, there isn't much we can do about it right now short of using WMDs, and that is problematic as I have already explained.

Now, if you have a bone to pick with any of that, then go ahead. I'd highly recommend the following websites for any information you may need:

[link] - Federation of Amerian Scientists - everything you wanted to possibly know regarding weapons of the world. Shockingly, they don't have the MOAB listed yet, which is very odd for them.

[link] - The World Factbook is full of useful statistical information on countries around the world. Great resource.

And the point goes to ChePibe.

I'm having a better day actually... And I betcha when you get back you'll be able to buy my book.

Buy it???? I'll buy it but I want the autographed edition I would think. LOL

Of course it's yours!

I guess you missed the sarcasm with your need for caterwauling taking over.

A such I don't need to waste time responding to somethign that wasn't being argued.

Hardly, STD discharge-boy.

Back to the usual... make dumb comments, get proven wrong, then fall back and say, "well, I was only kidding!"

Rev, seriously, for all of our sakes, turn off Fox News, pick up a copy of the New York Times, or even a good, non-fictional book, and just read and try to learn.

There are those of us who study things like this and plan to make a career out of working on them. We would rather not have to put up with the attacks of the uneducated.

A. Ignorant
B. We have a cease fire only... with N.K. Hostilities with the assholes are still in effect.
C. If you have not served at Greaves or Casey, etc. shut the fuck up because you don't know shit!
D. Truman had no balls in Korea... No choice in WWII and no reason not to nuke N.K. and Chinese
Troops when he had the chance and the public support to do it . Read, if you can, about Chosin
E. Darwin was right.... But God made the rules; we are just the players.
F. Finally... if you didn't have the personal discipline to take care of your teeth in the first place you won't last
the first muster in the FFL... Quit whining!

This is for the fucking idiot that thinks I support North Korea... you are a fucking schmuck.

Yeah, North Korea is an evil regime that needs to go. I believe we would be justified in invading them because they have technically broken the cease fire many times by sending commandos across into South Korea, plus the nuclear issue.

However, there's a good chance that they will collapse from within, IF the army starts to starve like the rest of the country. All the food we send them goes to the Army, not the people. The solution? Stop sending them food, and the Army will turn against their "Dear leader".

Not guaranteeing this will work, we thought Saddam would be toppled by his own people too.

Yeah whatever... you bash north korea but have a hammer and sickle as your picture.