I am. Denis "crazed" Kucinich is also giving a State of the Nation address opposite Bush that Burn2Shine may be interested in.

For some up-to-date information on Iraq, go to this link: [link] . For a more critical blog, go here: [link] . Don't make an uninformed decision on the outcome or decision of the Iraqi war without reading from a native's perspective.

I'd stand behind some of those numbers. Some others?

501: Number of American servicemen to die in Iraq from the beginning of the war - so far
-Amazing. So few deaths from a combat situation? How does that compare to through history?

0: Number of coffins of dead soldiers returning home from Iraq that the Bush administration has allowed to be photographed
-It has been a long standing rule that coffins of returning service persons are not photographed.

10 million: Estimated number of people worldwide who took to the streets in opposition to the invasion of Iraq, setting an all-time record for simultaneous protest
-I blame the internet. I think Foo was down at the time.

13: Number of vacation days the average American worker receives each year
-Where the hell did this come from? How many is enough? Add holidays into that. Add sick days. If you counted Teaches summer's off, how would that change the statistic?

The last one is what get's me. 53% approval rating? We only need 49% to win.

Actually you can argue with the numbers. Consider that both sides have in the past fudged numbers to make their arguments seem more sound.

I would be inclined to look up the numbers myself rather than rely on one biased site or another if I was really interested. Take the number from several sources and compare. That is probably the best way to compare and get a truer account.

Mind you I'm not saying they are wrong, rather, I'm taking issue with your statement regarding your opinion that you cannot argue with the numbers presented. Citing a biased site for those numbers doesn't help with credibility either.

Besides, what really needs to be talked about regarding the numbers? What "truth" is supposed to be covered by your "propaganda" issues?

"232: Number of American combat deaths in Iraq between May 2003 and January 2004"
It's a war.

501: Number of American servicemen to die in Iraq from the beginning of the war - so far
Again, its a war. You don't expect everyone to play nice or accidents to not happen do you? Hell people are in car accidents every day in the USA.

0: Number of American combat deaths in Germany after the Nazi surrender to the Allies in May 1945
This has no bearing on the practices of another nation. It doesn't appear that the Iraqi troops have all surrendered. False analogy.

0: Number of funerals or memorials that President Bush has attended for soldiers killed in Iraq
How many have the people complaining attended? Do you really think he doesn't care or hasn't prayed for any of them? Do you think it might be possible that whent he war is over there would be a full memorial for ALL that died?

100: Number of fund-raisers attended by Bush or Vice-President Dick Cheney in 2003
And how many have the dems attended? I suppose we are to think they all sat at home mourning the deaths of their fellow Americans. Hmm, no... I think they were out there using the deaths of those Americans as a tool against the current President who acted with the support of congress. That's nice of them though, using the deaths of others to further their own political goals.

13: Number of meetings between Bush and Tony Blair since he became President
So? How many other dignitaries has he met with?

10 million: Estimated number of people worldwide who took to the streets in opposition to the invasion of Iraq, setting an all-time record for simultaneous protest
So then it would be safe to presume that the rest who were not protesting were in fact in favor of it. For or against, or don't care. How many people are there on the planet, how many people in Iraq and the Middle East actually wanted this and appreciated what Bush has done?

2: Number of nations that Bush has attacked and taken over since coming into the White House
Funny I don't believe we have taken over any nations. Certainly we have not claimed them and we do not consider them American soil, nor do we fly our flags instead of the nation's flag.

9.2: Average number of American soldiers wounded in Iraq each day since the invasion in March last year
Uhm... it is a war.

1.6: Average number of American soldiers killed in Iraq per day since hostilities began
*sigh* What part of war don't the libs understand? We aren't the French. We don't win wars by waving white flags. Also, averages seem to be more of a propaganda tool than facts. If an american didn't die on a particular day, how fair is it to claim they did? I'm not disputing Americans died but rather the way the numbers are played with to make it seem like a bigger deal than it is. Propaganda.

16,000: Approximate number of Iraqis killed since the start of war
How many were because of America? How many were because of their own suicide bombers? How many died under Saddam's reign before we got involved? So many facts ignored. Again... I have to wonder how you can whine about propaganda when the libs are doing the same thing.

$100 billion: Estimated cost of the war in Iraq to American citizens by the end of 2003
Yep, we are paying for it. We elected our senators, we elected our president. They are representatives of the American public (in theory). If we were really taking over it wouldn't cost us a dime. We would have reimbursement by way of oil at cost because well... we'd own it if we took the damn countries over.

$13 billion: Amount other countries have committed towards rebuilding Iraq (much of it in loans) as of 24 October
Oh hey, they are finally starting to give two shits and help out. Of course it all has to be paid back...



As for the rest, I couldn't be bothered to read any further. Likely there would have been a rebuttal for most if not all of the little snipes on that page but it isn't worth the effort to shoot down each one.

Before screaming propaganda, how about looking at the propaganda on your side of the fence first.

/hates extremists on both sides

Interesting we actually agree on a few things.

The vacation days thing was fairly retarded. I actually lost a few brain cells reading that one. Was this piece written by someone in a European country? Do they really think they can blame Bush for the fact that Americans have a set number of days off etc.? The companies control work days and time off, not the feds.

Silly libs.

I don't think many of these numbers are that bad.....especially if they were explained, not just thrown out there, but if we are going to play those games, here is one of my numbers since we are going to compare Iraq to WWII:

500+ have died since the beginning of the war in Iraq
5000+ died on D-Day alone in WWII

10,000 civilians died so far in the Iraq war
30,000,000 civilians died in WWII

Well, obviously then we must be doing the best job ever in a war! And since this is our 2nd country we've successfully done this to since Bush got in office, we might as well not stop until we have taken care of all of our enemies ;)

Yep, we're on a roll. Who's next N. Korea or should we just go ahead and take out China?

About that protesting in the street thing:

10 million people protested compared to the 6 billion or so people who didn't? I say that is a great incentive that the majority of the world is for the War in Iraq. :)

Let's invade Canada before it's too late. [link]

Oh, a European newspaper being critical of the Bush administration.

Now that's breaking news.

I liked this site better when there was a greater majority Liberal voice.

I liked being part of both the miniorty and the correct side.

Why bother? We already have free access to their country.

Besides they have no resources that we want or need. I mean who needs moose dung and maple syrup?

Yep, basically what I said above.

Gotta love how they throw numbers out there like they really mean anything knowing full well the same could be done and discredit everything they are trying to say.

Asshat liberals and their "facts." Course, same can be said for those extreme cons that use the same bullshit tactic to discredit the opposition.

Fuck 'em all. :eyemouth:

Actually to be more precise it's british, you remember us, about the only country in the EU with a prime minster stupid enough to support bush all the way? yea? there's a good boy!

As for the rest of this thread it's not even worth bothering with, the only thing that outways all this right wing hypocrisy is its ignroance.

The same country stupid enough to recognize an aging relic as a monarch?

I would have to disagree with your sentiment regarding the right wing's ignorance otuweighing it's hypocrisy... surely you can see the left's being just as weighty no?

"The same country stupid enough to recognize an aging relic as a monarch? " hah that's pretty ironic!

I haven't seen the left jump on this thread really so I can't say yes to your question, however they can be *as* bad yes.

Ironic? You realize that the United States separated themselves from your little monarchy. Perhaps you heard of it... the American Revolution?

Perhaps you fail to understand the use of the word ironic. That is forgivable but I won't refrain from pointing the fact out that it is misused.

We do not have a king queen etc. We do have an elected leader who is governed by congress who is governed by our judiciary branch. Perhaps you have also heard of the term checks and balances?

Now, your Island is part was there, they have a parliament (which has way too much power) and magistrates that have no sense of justice or law but "rule" by whim. I don't think the faux democracy works well as it stands.

You may as well just have the queen doing things her way and get rid of the rest or get rid of them all and institute a real set of controls and democracy.

But hey, this is only my opinion. I'm sure you like how fucked up of a system you have. I know I wouldn't enjoy it. I like the freedoms we have here even if the system is still flawed.

Either way, we are doing great for such a young nation. We are a country founded on democracy so it would stand to reason that we are pretty good at it even if we have a few idiots in power.

Thanks for acknowledging that the left can be as bad. I'm all about being fair and balanced.

As you said earlier "perhaps the point flew over your head again", even if I pointed out the ironicness in what you just said you still wouldn't get it due to your ingrained ignorance and "I'm never wrong" attitude.

Way to run away from it. You lose.

You are almost getting that british arrogance back into your posts but aren't quite there yet. We know you can do it so please try again. We hate to be disappointed.

Also regarding your perception of an "I'm never wrong" attitude. You are wrong. I ahve made mistakes and admit them when I do. Ignoring the facts doesn't make it true despite your continued hoping.

Yea but rev, you never do admit to them, because in your view your not wrong, even if everone else in the world thinks you are.

I have. Keep telling yourself lies. The facts are here on the site for people to see them. When I make a mistake I admit it. Period. You cannot refute that because the facts are here in text for all to see.

Take the instance where I confused Hoochie for a poster of an article. I admitted it. That is but one of many examples that are available for perusal if someone cared enough to see the truth.

You do not.

Just because they didn't protest doesn't mean they were necessarily for the war in Iraq.

For example, I am FAR too lazy to protest anything.

Yes but how many people protest something they are for? Kind of defeats the purpose ;)

Read your post again....out loud if necessary....and see why you're a dumbass.

A dumbass because he liked being the few who were right?

Well if being a dumbass is being correct, I don't mind being a dumbass. Better than a wrong fucktard.

But you also have to remember that a lot of people protesting against the war were just protesting to say they did, and others just had nothing better to do. A lot of times most of a crowd is just spectators who gathered to see what the protest was about and get caught in the moment. So your point can be taken both ways.

Read HIS post again....again...OUT LOUD if necessary...then read my post OUT FUCKING LOUD...then re-think your own stupidity, genius.

hey troller: the post wasnt about ppl in support of the war. the post was saying a lot of ppl who are AGAINST the war dont always protest to say so. nothing about supporters protesting about anything.
normally i would consider your post to be relevant enough, but since you most certainly wouldnt, fuck off.