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The Right is Wrong
Posted by burn2shine on Mar 06, 2003 at 09:08 PM

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's Avatar .
Anonymous Coward spoke on Mar 06, 2003 at 09:45 PM
*It'll be here soon, just wanted to beat everyone else to it*
burn2shine's Avatar .
burn2shine spoke on Mar 07, 2003 at 12:20 AM
Something tells me this story will be big in terms of comments. It took me long enough to write to warrant a massive amount, that's for sure.
IndigoShaper's Avatar .
IndigoShaper spoke on Mar 07, 2003 at 12:27 AM
You babble wayyyyyy too much Shiny ;). However I did read your entire editorial, along with the added tens of thousands of words in links (your second link is broken by the way). You make a very convinving argument although your hero Colin Powell DID say that the oil in Iraq belongs to the Iraqi people in some debate with students. Although Bush might be getting out of control, it is the American people who put him into power and although you can't really get rid of him, just don't vote for him in the upcoming election.
If his popularity in the eyes of the American people have fallen, then this is a wish that can be fulfilled.

On the other hand, all the security measures you talk about; as bad as they might sound - would people be ready for another 9/11? What if all these measures were not in place?

Similarly, your view on the war in Iraq - I don't agree with the US tampering with evidence and what not but if it is the only way to get rid of Saddam and potentially cause a spread of democray, then so be it. Saddam is evil there is no doubt about it - and his people suffer because of him. If the American forces come, those who do surrrender will not be tried or identified as combatants - on the other hand, the people who man the antiaircraft weapons will be considered combatants, even if they are technically civilians. I hope that if a war happens, that the smart Iraqis against Saddam do nothing to help his cause and therefore make it easier for Americans to get rid of him. Your so-called puppet governments are only temporary and any ruling done by them can be overturned when a new government is elected so I see no long term problems in that.

I would however like to see that debate between Saddam and Bush happen on CBS; that would be interesting ;)
DC's Avatar .
DC spoke on Mar 07, 2003 at 01:11 AM
Somewhat ironic that you quoted Mr. Lincoln, a white-supremacist who suspended the habeas corpus, passed an unconstitutional income tax and ignored the Supreme Court's screamings. True, Bush is no Lincoln, thankfully.

To begin, the national debt. As a percentage of our GDP, National debt has barely risen since the Clinton Era. In fact, the debt is not necessarily the largest we've ever accrued in relative terms. During World War II, our national debt was greater than our GDP - all the goods and services an economy produced. Currently, its around 70% of our GDP. Additionally, end of year reports indicate that the national debt increased under Clinton too.

What you say about a rush to war is false. A rush doesn't take months, or years as it has in this situation. And after a quick read of the article of an edited United Nations security document, it is clear that the U.S. edited Blix's report with the consent and approval of the five permanent security council members because the contents were "risky". If the U.S. ommitted evidence, France, China, Russian and the UK know specifically what was taken out - which you hint at being evidence of the destruction of Sadaam's weapons. However, if Sadaam's weapons had been destroyed, France, Russia and China wouldn't support further arms inspections and could easily call the United States' bluff. What they were possibly trying to hide was their own involvement in arming Sadaam, and yes, everyone has had involvement with Saddaam.

And yes, the U.S. still spies on other nations. Shocking. Somehow intelligence agencies are the keys to US domestic and international failure in preventing terrorism and foreseeing diplomatic trists. However, when they do their jobs - spying - they get criticized.

Lord Palmerston once said, "There are no permanent alliances, just permanent interests." You badger the United States for acting unilaterally but then appear upset when the United States acts multilaterally in a "rigged game". How was it rigged? Because we expected and needed the UN to pass that proposal? Or maybe because you expected the UN to prevent the US from passing the proposal, and the UN failed? What would you have the United States do? Bow to the words of a bunch of unelected, bureacratic elitists? Subject our constitution under the jurisdiction of a vague, international body concerned with its own interests? Somehow, everyone else's national goals must take precedence over our own security. The reason why we rebuke these "allies" is because of the stance they have taken on the UN is no longer in the best of our interests.

The US doesn't need Iraqi oil. There is enough oil in Colorado shale to supplant Iraq's capacity. There is enough oil in northern Canada and the Gulf of Mexico to run the United States for decades. If the US truly wanted Iraqi oil, they could legitimately have expanded the Iraqi food for oil program, which Sadaam abused for his own purposes. Currently, we have been scouting Western Africa and have been wooing Russia for increased access to their oil. We really don't need to begin a war over resources.

I'm sure the word "empire" sent a chill down the spines of all liberals, made conservatives to cower in fear and caused neo-conservatives to blush. However, the concept of an American "empire" has some legitimacy. After WWII, one of the main reasons the United States remade Europe as a capitalistic, democratic society was to bolster its own capitalistic economy which had recently climbed out of the Great Depression. Remaking our adversaries as independent trade parters and stable political friends, if not allies, is a more important goal than merely conquering land. The global market has evolved beyond land / resource mongering where the free-trade of products and commodities transcend national boundaries. Independent, democratic governments allow expression of local ideals, laws and values. Even the United States' federal structure allows for independent, democratic expressions of local values and laws within the states. Imposition of a global hegemony is somewhat unlikely given the nature of US policy and the structure of capitalism and democracy. Even if we did remake the Middle-East into a stable, legitimate and independent society under the rule of law, would that be bad?

And using Bush's Christian faith and distorting it as a Doomsday cult driven to the destruction of both Israel and the Middle East by a document made by a jew, Perle, is nonsense for reasons you stated. Although the jewish lobby may be trying to cozy up with Evangelicalists, an unelected and non-political jew such as Perle would not maliciously advocate a war that would destroy his country - especially not in exchange for protection it largely provides for itself and for a Christian president's vindication. Regardless of the political climate, the United States would provide Israel with armaments and aid because of its status as an ally; Israel can easily defeat the Mid-East in an all-out war as it has in the past. Furthermore, a leader of Bush's church very vocally opposes war. Trying to characterize a religious Bush by his supporter's radical positions is as uncharitable as characterizing Clinton by Al Sharpton's vehement rhetoric. Not all Christians are right-wing freaks.

Partial birth abortions are banned in Europe and have very strong opposition from the US populace, Democrats and Republicans. To gain votes for their own party, the Democrats have been engineering government structure by allowing the formation of unions when the workers themselves are public servants electing the men that represent and pay them. Unions are not warranted.

The passing of the Patriot Act isn't only the work of the executive branch. It had very wide support from Democrats and Republicans and has withstood a trial through an appeals court. Democrats have even felt obliged to aid the Executive department by giving it the power to gather information and track the citizens that it represents. Republicans, surprisingly, blanched.

The one reason the "right" *I thought it was only neo-conservatives that we were bashing* has called the left unpatriotic is because they have refused to abandon partisan politics in support of US ideals. When Trent Lott made a "racist comment," Republicans eviscerated the guy. Politicians aren't supposed to act that way. However, the Democrats refuse to condemn the politicans that badly represent them and society, such as Jesse Jackson and Robert Byrd. And furthermore, many Dems haven't been forthwright on whether they would support the troops while not supporting a war in Iraq. Furthermore, when part of your constituency blares "War for Oil" and "Bush is a nazi," your credibility decreases when you don't confront those lies.
DC's Avatar .
DC spoke on Mar 07, 2003 at 01:14 AM
>On the other hand, all the security measures you talk about; as bad as they >might sound - would people be ready for another 9/11? What if all these >measures were not in place?

I'm ready for anything and nobody should touch my freedoms. =p
Fortunately, some feel the same way as I do.
guitari2600's Avatar .
guitari2600 spoke on Mar 07, 2003 at 08:27 AM
good stuff.. quite a bit of reading, but i agree with a lot of things in there.
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 07, 2003 at 12:16 PM
Either you really know what you are talking about or you are a great bullshitter...

Ever thought about becoming a politician? ;) That wasn't meant as an insult... really... bwahahaha.
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 07, 2003 at 12:20 PM
Not quite. Popular votes don't count for squat. Folks on the west coast are just voting as a formality because the electoral college is done voting before it gets to us.

I think the system is backwards. We should count popular votes first, then if it is undecided the electoral college should get involved.

I bet the number of people voting would increase and people would do it more if they felt it really mattered.

At any rate, you can bet I didn't want him in place. Unfortunately the system isn't designed to elect third parties. The votes that go to people belonging to independant parties get tossed in with the republican and democratic votes. There is no way for them to win.

Feh.
's Avatar .
Anonymous Coward spoke on Mar 07, 2003 at 01:29 PM
The popular vote can be won with only 13 counties in the United States leading to unequal representation of regional values and choices.

And I think Vermont (Maybe New Hampshire?) has an awesome electoral college example. People vote, and they divide their electoral votes proportionally among the candidates that were voted for, meaning even Nader could win an electoral college vote there.
DC's Avatar .
DC spoke on Mar 07, 2003 at 01:32 PM
When people can't tell where the facts end and the bs begins, then I've done my job ;)

And yeah, for the politician question.
khoury's Avatar .
khoury spoke on Mar 08, 2003 at 10:18 PM
The Patriot Act is in-fucking-sane. Whoever supports that bill is a traitor in my opinion.
khoury's Avatar .
khoury spoke on Mar 08, 2003 at 10:19 PM
You know what, strike that "in my opinion" part. I am right so that shouldn't be there. They are fucking traitors.
khoury's Avatar .
khoury spoke on Mar 08, 2003 at 10:21 PM
Don't fuck with our freedoms.
khoury's Avatar .
khoury spoke on Mar 08, 2003 at 10:23 PM
it's lovely that we don't actually vote for anything. In my opinion, everyone should be able to vote for every law and candidate that effects them.
toaster_man's Avatar .
toaster_man spoke on Mar 09, 2003 at 12:22 PM
George W. Bush = Teh Sux0rz
IndigoShaper's Avatar .
IndigoShaper spoke on Mar 09, 2003 at 06:36 PM
Better not trust that "something" again ...:Phee hee.........:DAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :o*gasp* :DAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA

8) ok im done. ;)
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 10, 2003 at 11:32 AM
Hire me to fetch your coffee and slippers for 50k a year.

I'll be anyone's bitch for good cash. :D
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 10, 2003 at 11:42 AM
Others have in being able to fly an airplane into a tall building?

Or perhaps the freedom folks have in plotting your death?

Or are you saying your freedoms are selective? You seem to take a black and white stance. Either all or none.

Your freedom is not in jeapordy unless you side with those against the USA. Once you do that you comit treason... then you lose your freedom.

You are hardly worth the government's time and effort to police. Even spouting these anti-government sentiments, they don't give a fuck about you. They only care about real risks.

Why? Because you are free to think, say, and pretty much do anything you want even if it conflicts with what those in power think. You have freedom.

If you want privacy, set up your own communication system. If you use anything the government regulates, it is technically a public forum of sorts. You use their stuff, they say what goes. Privacy is for your home. They aren't coming to set up bugs and cameras in your home so what does it matter?

If you walk outside or communicate outside those 4 walls, you are NOT in a private area so your right to privacy doesn't exist.

The only real right you have is to not say anything thus keeping your private notions to yourself and away from listening ears.

Of course, I could have just spiraled off on a major tangent... I am still trying to wake up.

What exactly do you think is happening to our "freedom" or how are our freedom's being compromised?
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 10, 2003 at 11:45 AM
Belonging to one of the two actual parties (i.e. republican or democrat) they cannot be elected. Truly, the system was designed to pass along votes for other parties to those two.

It is a messed up system. I do wish our votes really counted. I agree with Khoury that we should be allowed to vote for every candidate, and law being drawn up. Our votes should count, not some schmuck's who is making 150k a year to sit on his ass drinking jack n coke while watching a nicks game. Yaknow?
burn2shine's Avatar .
burn2shine spoke on Mar 10, 2003 at 01:10 PM
Gonna try to answer all your disagreements D&C, but we will see :)

Somewhat ironic that you quoted Mr. Lincoln, a white-supremacist who suspended the habeas corpus, passed an unconstitutional income tax and ignored the Supreme Court's screamings.

I really don't think it is fair to judge a past president against the standards of today, especially considering that at the time, even those against slavery didn't see blacks as being equal to whites (hence what caused the civil rights movement). At the time, EVERYONE was a white supremacist, so to judge one person that way would be to judge an entire time, and thus negate any positive effects that arose from that era. I also think that the habeas corpus issue is a bit tough to justify as a problem, given that Lincoln had to deal with a country that came apart at the seams and almost collapsed...that is a lot different than going and starting a fight in someone else's yard. And as for the Supreme Court, just remember that Bush was appointed by them, not elected by us ;)



To begin, the national debt. As a percentage of our GDP, National debt has barely risen since the Clinton Era. In fact, the debt is not necessarily the largest we've ever accrued in relative terms. During World War II, our national debt was greater than our GDP - all the goods and services an economy produced. Currently, its around 70% of our GDP. Additionally, end of year reports indicate that the national debt increased under Clinton too.

True, however one simply cannot argue that under Clinton, more people were working and more people were affluent in their lifestyle. What makes your comparison to WW2 a bit faulty though, is that at the time, the US was not the head of the world economy. Being as we were isolationist, we did not have the control over the way trade embargoes and exporting/importing worked nearly at the level that we do now. In essence, we aren't just supporting ourselves any more, we are supporting the world. And to be reckless behind the wheel of the economy by going off on little expensive sidetrips, dragging other countries and THEIR economies with us, is not the way the world leader should behave. Many decried Clinton for not taking action in some skirmishes, or for doing it half-assed, but in my mind he did this to keep the economic relationships that we had relatively strong. That may be a point where we disagree, but that is my stance on it.

What you say about a rush to war is false. A rush doesn't take months, or years as it has in this situation.

Perhaps "rush" was a bad choice of words..."pre-occupation" seems to fit much better, especially since the economy has fallen apart since Bush really began to focus on the war in Iraq (though it was already on life support before then).

And yes, the U.S. still spies on other nations. Shocking. Somehow intelligence agencies are the keys to US domestic and international failure in preventing terrorism and foreseeing diplomatic trists. However, when they do their jobs - spying - they get criticized.

It wasn't the issue of spying itself that is so troubling, its how we are using bully tactics from the RESULTS of spying to get what we want. Yes, I know that is how the game is played politically, but that doesn't mean that it is right, or it is fair, especially considering the overwhelming lack of support the US has in going to Iraq. It rings of desperation, of an attempt to do whatever we have to in order to get our goal accomplished, even to the point of snubbing our nose at everyone else. That is a dangerous path to take, and when we need these other countries for the "war on terror", they will remember our diplomatic transgressions. Of that I am certain.

What would you have the United States do? Bow to the words of a bunch of unelected, bureacratic elitists? Subject our constitution under the jurisdiction of a vague, international body concerned with its own interests? Somehow, everyone else's national goals must take precedence over our own security. The reason why we rebuke these "allies" is because of the stance they have taken on the UN is no longer in the best of our interests.

This is, I believe, the key point where those in favor and those against this war diverge. To me, by being a part of the United Nations, the US is on a level playing field, diplomatically, with everyone else. Yes we act in our best interest, but the entire point of the UN is to allow everyone a voice (democratically) to speak out on world concerns and to help prevent and stop wars from happening. You spout about "our own security", and yet there has been no evidence, save for a few stray missles, that Hussein is ever even planning on attacking us. There is no al-Qaida connection from Iraq, which makes me wonder how much our security is really threatened by Iraq. I'm curious about your comment calling the UN a "vague, international body concerned with its own interests". What exactly are you imagining these "interests" to be? I have further comments on where you are going with that, but I will wait till you explain your case.



The US doesn't need Iraqi oil. There is enough oil in Colorado shale to supplant Iraq's capacity. There is enough oil in northern Canada and the Gulf of Mexico to run the United States for decades.

I never claimed that the entire war was just about oil, but I think that you are overlooking the importance of oil, at least politically. Yes we have enough oil in the US to last us for a long time. However, politically speaking, drilling in a constituents yard is not a smart idea. That's why it makes a lot more sense to just do it somewhere else, where voters won't see. We already do this economically, the big difference now though is that we are trying to do it militarily. Oil is important, but it is not the reason this war is being started. I would say that it probably ranks #3 on the list in terms of why we are doing it, behind the other things I laid out in this piece.


Even if we did remake the Middle-East into a stable, legitimate and independent society under the rule of law, would that be bad?

My intention wasn't to scare people about an "American Empire", but simply to point out the similiarities. We all know that the US is the most powerful country in the world, and as such really ARE an empire. It's just that for a while, we have been content in keeping to ourselves, rather than causing trouble with others like expanding empires often do. And to answer your question, yes it WOULD be a bad thing because we are not delivering democracy by choice, we are doing it by force. In a region as troubled as the Middle East, where it seems that only dictators and kings can rule, bringing democracy in - something that people there seem to really hate - against the will of the people is not a smart idea. Yes it is good for us, but until we realize that us even BEING in their country is considered a horrible offense to their religion, let alone rule it or setup rulers, we will continue to draw ire and terrorist acts against us by them. Invading the Middle East will only bring the troubles of Israel home.


Regardless of the political climate, the United States would provide Israel with armaments and aid because of its status as an ally; Israel can easily defeat the Mid-East in an all-out war as it has in the past.

That is true - we give over $3 billion to Israel every year...and yet we get nothing in return beyond political ties. You argue that we should protect our own interests, and yet how can we justify giving aid and help to a country that is completely despised by their neighbors and the MAIN reason we were attacked on 9/11? Because they are a democratic nation? That just doesn't make sense. I am not an anti-semite by any stretch, but supporting the school bully is sure to bring more repurcussions, regardless of what our president believes or not.



Partial birth abortions are banned in Europe and have very strong opposition from the US populace, Democrats and Republicans. To gain votes for their own party, the Democrats have been engineering government structure by allowing the formation of unions when the workers themselves are public servants electing the men that represent and pay them. Unions are not warranted.

I'm actually against partial-birth abortions, but what troubled me about the mandate Bush has is what banning ANY form of abortion will do. It's very clear that they plan to undermine Roe vs. Wade as much as possible, with even distant hopes of reversing it if they stack in enough Supreme Court judges. That is simply not acceptable in my opinion, and though I know that is a purely political disagreement, it is the ferocity of Bush's attempts at trying to undo a lot of the civil rights movement that is so bothersome. I fail to see any problem with unions, especially governmental ones. If people don't have a safety net of rights to fall back on in the workplace, they will be exploited over and over again. Look at the Industrial Revolution.



The passing of the Patriot Act isn't only the work of the executive branch. It had very wide support from Democrats and Republicans and has withstood a trial through an appeals court. Democrats have even felt obliged to aid the Executive department by giving it the power to gather information and track the citizens that it represents. Republicans, surprisingly, blanched.

The Patriot Act was passed less than 2 months after 9/11. During that time, Bush could have said "eating bananas is unpatriotic" and no one in the country would have touched a banana for months. The point I'm trying to make, is that the bill passed during a time when no one wanted to be accused of standing in the way of the fight on terror, of being an un-American. This gave Bush (and yes, some members of Congress) the opportunity to lay on anything and everything they wanted to in the bill, knowing it would pass unconditionally. Only now are we realizing the problems of that. Also, I'm curious as to where you saw that Democrats wanted to gather info and Republicans didn't. Find me a link and I will gladly retract my statement.




The one reason the "right" *I thought it was only neo-conservatives that we were bashing* has called the left unpatriotic is because they have refused to abandon partisan politics in support of US ideals.

Define "US ideals" please...does that include falling in line with whatever the President says and not protesting or voicing your opinon differently? Because that seems to be all the right (and no, it's NOT just neo-conservatives. That is Bush, but a lot of his backers are regular conservatives) is attacking on the left right now...how DARE a celebrity use his fame to say his opinion! Gasp, it's so much better when they just stick to the script and pose for the camera...opening their mouth is un-patriotic! Or is it maybe the fact that the ACLU saw a rise of over 50,000 new members after 9/11, because people were afraid of the *new* US ideals like spying on citizens and taking away our liberties that scare them. Because to me, those things seem like the most patriotic things a citizen could do: speak their mind and confront their government.


When Trent Lott made a "racist comment," Republicans eviscerated the guy. Politicians aren't supposed to act that way. However, the Democrats refuse to condemn the politicans that badly represent them and society, such as Jesse Jackson and Robert Byrd. And furthermore, many Dems haven't been forthwright on whether they would support the troops while not supporting a war in Iraq. Furthermore, when part of your constituency blares "War for Oil" and "Bush is a nazi," your credibility decreases when you don't confront those lies.

Jesse Jackson is a joke, even in the Democratic party. Why people still give him press, I don't know, but rest assured that no one is taking him (or Al Sharpton) seriously. In a way though, he serves as much purpose as someone like Ann Coulter serves: a good gauge on how crazy one side can get. Also keep in mind that I am not a vehement supporter of the Democrats. I am registered as one, yes, but right now they have their heads so far up their ass that if Joe Lieberman actually gets the Democratic nomination, I will switch to the Green Party. I vow it. However, when have we expected our leaders to speak for the crazy members of their own party? You don't really see Bill Frist out there holding up the aborted-fetus photos you see at anti-abortion rallies do you? Then why expect Tom Daschle to wave a "war for oil" sign?


Ok, I'm done. I'm curious to see your response though D&C.
SurrealStatic's Avatar .
SurrealStatic spoke on Mar 10, 2003 at 02:23 PM
*Clap* Very well put.
khoury's Avatar .
khoury spoke on Mar 10, 2003 at 09:56 PM
I, my friend, think that when the goverment can spy on you without telling until the time when they get something to hit you with, which could be a long time, there is a problem.

I didn't say that there should be freedom to fly into buildings, don't be an ass.

My sentiments are not anti-government, they are anti-shithead. They are pro-freedom.

I disagree, just because the government has a hand in helping with some communications does not grant it the right to dive in and listen indefinetly.
khoury's Avatar .
khoury spoke on Mar 10, 2003 at 10:00 PM
I can't fathom why we can't vote on everything and everyone that effects us.
khoury's Avatar .
khoury spoke on Mar 10, 2003 at 10:01 PM
back to Slashdot foul nerd. I curse thee!
Leptictitious's Avatar .
Leptictitious spoke on Mar 10, 2003 at 10:22 PM
I've been reading around at alot of your comments, specifically the ones where you logged in as different users and had an argument with youself to up the Comment Stats of your Homoerotic article...what I'm trying to say is, your 15 arent you?
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 11, 2003 at 03:35 AM
lost in your own little world.

Well perhaps when you finally hit puberty and grow some short n curleys you will begin to understand how the real world works.

Don't worry I won't hold your age against you. You are expected to be stupid ;)
IndigoShaper's Avatar .
IndigoShaper spoke on Mar 11, 2003 at 07:55 AM
Hey Leptitty, maybe you didn't get the emails from your own editorial where the comments were "upped" as well. And by the way - its YOU'RE, not YOUR. And no I'm not your age.
's Avatar .
Anonymous Coward spoke on Mar 11, 2003 at 08:07 AM
THE REV BODY SLAMS COUGHRY!!!!!!!!! WAY TO GO REV :love:
khoury's Avatar .
khoury spoke on Mar 11, 2003 at 04:18 PM
I'd say I'm not trapped under the constraints of your world. But hey asshole ;) we can all think what we want.
Leptictitious's Avatar .
Leptictitious spoke on Mar 11, 2003 at 05:15 PM
Actually it is YOUR. I wasn't insulting YOUR youth, I was just bringing up the topic of YOUR maturity level. YOU'RE right, I guess it's not much of a topic considering...

Anyway,

When exactly did I log in and out as different users, and have an imaginary conversation with my self to up the Comment Stats of my article?
Leptictitious's Avatar .
Leptictitious spoke on Mar 11, 2003 at 05:17 PM
Actually it is YOUR. I wasn't insulting YOUR youth, I was just bringing up the topic of YOUR maturity level. YOU'RE right, I guess it's not much of a topic considering...

Anyway,

When exactly did I log in and out as different users, and have an imaginary conversation with my self to up the Comment Stats of my article?
AquaVelvet's Avatar .
AquaVelvet spoke on Mar 11, 2003 at 06:24 PM
Terrorism is the price of freedom, not our civil liberties. Our freedom of movement, freem of speech, assembly and dissent, even freedom from total surveillance the moment we step out of our houses is what makes (I should say: made) this country great. Actually, thanks to the Patriot Act, we can already by spied on in our homes -- without our knowledge and without much judicial oversight. As for your thoughts still being private -- not when the FBI can snoop into your library and bookstore purchases -- again, without your knowledge. Or the right for you to defend yourself against their charges, if they even bother to bring any. Yes, our openness makes us a bigger target. But isn't being free worth it?

So much for Give me freedom or give me daeth :p
khoury's Avatar .
khoury spoke on Mar 11, 2003 at 07:24 PM
Hey coward, the name is khoury. Betta recanize.
khoury's Avatar .
khoury spoke on Mar 11, 2003 at 07:26 PM
Full of agreement here.
CozmoTrouble's Avatar .
CozmoTrouble spoke on Mar 12, 2003 at 03:40 AM
The fact that this discussion has become as intense as it has can only mean one thing. Mr. Osama "Only psychopaths speak so calmly about mass murder" "Bin "I hate the fact that you are having a good time" ladin and his "what the fuck is wrong with you on a fucking fundamental level" crew are still haunting us. I don't know. I really don't. I have well thought out convictions about most matters. But this one, well, it scares the fuck out of me. America is looking like Germany circa 1938, Orwell and the concepts of 1984 have been made proof positive, I can hear Ashchroft mouth breathing on the other end of my phone, and America, as well as the rest of the world are about to shit their collective pants. And I don't have a clue. And I will bet my bottom dollar, and that is not an "idle phrase", that there isn't anyone who does have a clue. Facts, yes, theories.. yes... we all have theories... But a clue? If we did.. there wouldn't be a problem.

Yeah... I am back... humping your collective leg.

And burn2shine... you are about as much of a moderate liberal as I am a moderate conservative... And I agree, you are a good write, but you are way too long winded... like me ;)
IndigoShaper's Avatar .
IndigoShaper spoke on Mar 12, 2003 at 07:37 AM
"what I'm trying to say is, your 15 arent you?"

Maybe they teach a different version of English wherever you go to school - it is "YOU'RE" where I learnt english.

I didn't say it was YOU who logged in and out - it was holyjuan of course - and we just love playing our little games ;) (don't we sweety?) Anyway if you even looked at your article you would see what I meant. Silly...:D
IndigoShaper's Avatar .
IndigoShaper spoke on Mar 12, 2003 at 08:07 AM
Khoury just turned 18, Im sure he has all his curley wurleys or whatever.

HOWEVER, if you don't its NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT KHOURY - its TOTALLY NATURAL to be a LATE DEVELOPER; a visit to your doctor should clear matters up for you :)

/hee:D
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 12, 2003 at 12:18 PM
you are cheating on him?

What color are they if you are so sure? ;)
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 12, 2003 at 12:31 PM
and bookstores, you are not in a private place. You are out in the public. The government has just as much right to know what you buy as the guy checking you out, or the snoop looking over your shoulder.

Want privacy? Order playboy and have them sent in those nice black wrapper bags ;)

I could have sworn it was common knowledge that what you check out at libraries was flagged because of the sensitive nature of the knowledge they can provide. I mean really, they are going out of their way to provide you the information to blow stuff up. They could implement a book ban on it all and deny you even a choice to read the stuff or not.

They don't catalogue a list of each and every item each person checks out. They only flag sensitive items. If you want more provacy, go to someone's private library and read all you want.

Purchases are sort of the same thing. Take this example... Go to home depot. But pvc, end caps, and epoxy. 4ft pvc tube, cut into 12" sections, two screw on end caps for each section, and epoxy for the caps to seal them on tight.

Looks like the making of a pipebomb. Most place won't sell that to you. They don't give a rats ass what you would do with it in your private home, it just ain't gonna happen.

The same checks and balances are there to keep people from hurting others.

Regardless of what the Act says, unless you are a suspect you won't be monitored. Regardless, they had the right to monitor you if they had cause. They just had to jump a few extra hoops to do it. This way keeps them from causing more havok by creating reasons for you to be monitored. (Like planting stuff, or drumming up fake charges etc.)

Don't be suspect, don't worry. :D

So where was it written that we couldn't be monitored by anyone at any time outside of our homes? How is this a civil liberty violation? I mean, we go out into public where other people are... seems to me that you are gonna be seen by someone. Hell, people go out and "people watch" because it is fun.

I feel people need to stop looking for allt he conspiracies. If you think about it, government workers are people too. Yes there are bad ones, but there are also good ones. Have a little faith in humanity. If some guy is snooping on you in your home and doesn't see any reason to he won't continue... unless of course the audio from the gay sex is worth listenign to ;) Bwahahaha
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 12, 2003 at 12:34 PM
We should start dropping fliers and videos depicting Osama the Asshat screwing the sacred cow.

That should get that little bastard out of his cave and in the open where we can deal with him properly ;)
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 12, 2003 at 12:44 PM
Well from the sound of it you ARE constrained by how the real world works. If you weren't you wouldn't be so worried about what was going on or trying so hard to convince everyone otherwise.

Your thoughts are the same as those hippy kids of the 60/70's It isn't anything new. They grew up and learned how the world truly works, you will too eventually.

If you weren't trapped you wouldn't have anything to fight against. Your world is a delusion. You should have taken the red pill.
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 12, 2003 at 01:52 PM
Heh, that spelling of learned always reminded me of a hick, or redneck speaking about his ejumakayshun.

I done learnt that t'other day. Heh ;)
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 12, 2003 at 01:59 PM
It is because the laws were written for a specific time period. Times change. The founding fathers were not perfect. This is why there are amendments. The only problem is, the folks writing in these amendments are either idiots or geniuses keeping the power in their hands.

It is sad but we just have to make due with the abilities we have and are able to keep.

There is always someone worse off than you or I. Considering the rest of the world, we have it damn good.
IndigoShaper's Avatar .
IndigoShaper spoke on Mar 12, 2003 at 03:20 PM
Eh?
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Anonymous Coward spoke on Mar 12, 2003 at 11:00 PM
Just because the world sucks, doesn't mean I shouldn't have the desire to change it. They didn't grow up, but lost hope in their cause. In many ways I think this government is truly wrong and hope that someday it might change. Contributing to that change, I believe, is where my problem lies.
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Anonymous Coward spoke on Mar 13, 2003 at 08:45 AM
we dont all disagree with his methods :mfinger:
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 13, 2003 at 12:27 PM
Give us some personal information instead of hiding then. I mean, you support the asshole's attacks on the US after all. Why not stand up openly for the cock sucker?
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Anonymous Coward spoke on Mar 13, 2003 at 07:00 PM
He probably has 3 SS agents following him by now.
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Anonymous Coward spoke on Mar 14, 2003 at 01:46 AM
my point would be that the aMERICAN nation has much more boold on its hands than he.

you reap what you sow in this world.
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 14, 2003 at 12:47 PM
we should just let all you fucktards die in concentration camps. We should allow you to be over run and exterminated. All your weak willed pleas for help should go unanswered.

After all, why should we get our hands dirty saving your hide?

Fucking cowardly twat.

We don't go and start wars with folks for the hell of it. The only time we did that was when we fought ourselves, and even then there were slavery issues.

We have a higher sense of being in those regards, unlike yourself considering you think that way.

We don't want to be attacked. Never have, never will. Anyone attacks us we will defend ourselves.

We don't want to have to fight wars for you fucking pussies either. I sure as shit don't want my tax money wasted on your sorry asses in war, or peacetime with "aid." Take responsibility for your own fucking hangups before trying to blame the US.
burn2shine's Avatar .
burn2shine spoke on Mar 14, 2003 at 12:50 PM
Who the hell are you attacking with this diatribe Reverend?

Liberals?
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Anonymous Coward spoke on Mar 15, 2003 at 02:41 AM
lol, feel better now :mfinger:
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 15, 2003 at 11:09 PM
Basically any of those bastards saying we don't belong out there defending ourselves. Liberals do it, as well as the traitorous bastards who think Osama was right.

Same goes for those cheese eating surrender monkeys who we bailed out of tight spots on more than one occasion.

Fuck em all I say.
burn2shine's Avatar .
burn2shine spoke on Mar 16, 2003 at 01:28 AM
But didn't those same "surrender monkeys" (yes, it's a great quote but it's a bit over used) bail us out on numerous occasions as well...such as, oh I don't know, the American Revolution and Spanish American War?

I might be wrong, but then again you might also be one of those idiots who thinks that boycotting French products is actually going to do anything to make them "change their ways".
typing_monkey's Avatar .
typing_monkey spoke on Mar 16, 2003 at 04:51 PM
I have a friend back in Michigan who works with a lot of Iraqi immigrants-so far all of them he's talked to want Suddham OUT and would very much like for the US to step in and destroy him. He is an evil, evil man, plain and simple. The atrocities he's committed against his people are justification alone. However, the political machinations behind the Bush war machine seem completely wrong. Noone's bashing Christianity-only Bush's crusade to bring Christianity to a people who clearly would not want it anymore than they want us there in the first place. Not only that, but everyone knows that Bush has personal oil interests invested both domestically and abroad. He would have plenty to gain in the end if everything went his way. Again, the right idea, with all the wrong reasons.

Reverend...taking your perspective on things (which I find hard to stomach), any steps against liberty the government might take would be completely justified by the elimination of terrorist activities. You say that only those who are suspects will be tracked. Well, who determines who the suspects are? Whoever in the government says so. There is no "burden of proof" in the Patriot Act, no "reasonable doubt." You say "have a little faith in humanity." When did the laissez faire doctrine of the Industrial Revolution ever provide quality working conditions for factory workers? Never. "Faith in humanity" only led to abuses in the system-the same abuses of the system we're observing now in our legal department.
The Patriot Act really does nothing to stop terrorist activities. The tragedy of 9/11 was borne out of shitty airline security measures, not a lack of phone taps and video surveillance. I can just as easily make a car bomb now as I could before. The only difference is in my freedoms to do everything else without having to look over my shoulder knowing a good percentage of my tax dollars are going towards infringements on my rights guaranteed by the Constitution. Not that I am a terrorist-just a hypothetical situation. There seems to be this zealous desire in certain Americans to uproot terrorism....you can't claim war on "terrorism" anymore than you can claim a war on "bank robberies" or "rape." It's a completely pyrrhic victory if we turn into Eurasia in the process...

I don't care to point fingers at political parties...there are equal amounts of idiots on every side.

Reverend...the personal attacks don't do anything to further your arguments.
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Anonymous Coward spoke on Mar 16, 2003 at 07:45 PM
Don't invoke the wisdom of a man, Lincoln, who was implicitly against the ideals you argue, especially if you cannot find him morally clean based on those same ideals. Furthermore, the SCOTUS stopped Florida from altering election laws ad-hoc and influencing a national election. And, independent media recounts found Bush won.

The United States has been at the helm of world economic power since WWI when it lent capital to the war torn nations of Europe. We have always done whats best for us, thereby indirectly aiding the world economy. And while I'll give you that more people were employed during Clinton's term, its not as a result of deficits or debts as I have pointed out - they increased under his tenure also. Therefore, debt spending is equally meaningless when applied to Bush's term and the economy. As you said, the dot-com bubble, an already impending recession, 9-11, economic scandals and a bleak world economy lead to the current economic problems. The second and third largest economies, Japan and Germany respectively, have been Dead On Arrivals for the past decade.

I'll give you that Bush's team has a fetish with Iraq right now.

The United Nation's charter is this:

Prevent War
Reaffirm human rights
Establish conditions under which justice may be maintained
Promote Social Progress

Its important to note in all democratic societies these are goals. The prevention of violence, protection of human rights and promotion of social progress warrants the use of just, lawful violence in contravention of unlawful, unjust violence. Policemen have the authority to apprehend a suspect using violence if that suspect violently resists. Apply these universal principals on a world-wide, international scale as the United Nations does. Even if Iraq didn't threaten the use of force against the United States, the deposition of Sadaam Hussein cannot be restricted on moral grounds because, as a unlawful tyrant denying the rule of law, protection of Sadaam Hussein's sovereignty by law cannot be rightfuly and justly argued.

And when I said the United Nations is a vague, international body concerned with its own interests I meant this: bureacrats owe their allegiance to their leaders which owe their own allegiance to their people - United Nations charter notwithstanding.

Opening oil fields within the United States would be a great way to open up jobs and as Bush has demonstrated he has no interest in paying attention to the environmentalists that may oppose him and wouldn't vote for him anyway. When you weight votes coming from oil field workers against environmentalist groups, Bush would assuredly pick the former. Oil may be a boon when a war with Iraq comes, but I don't think its a major consideration, especially since promotion of oil interests in the United States would have a higher political pay-off.

What good is fighting for a just war, in promotion of just-ideals, under the sanction of a just-constitution if we are not willing to accept that they truly are right, good and just and impose them on other nations? Many pro-life radicals *not proponents* sack abbortion clinics. Its their belief but we don't afford them the ability to act on their beliefs because the action wouldn't be right. Likewise, many things involved in Mid-East "culture," such as an oppressive government aren't right and shouldn't be condoned. Many in the Mid-East fault us for supporting Hussein. Besides, democracy isn't a right or an ideal, but a process to express local values, morals and rights under the unbiased and fair rule of law. A democracy's culture and moral is expressed by its people that vote and voice their opinion through it, not by a dictator that lords over it.

I didn't justify giving Israel aid. You have to make a distinction between political realism and my own points of view - the previous paragraph was completely my own point of view. I said regardless of what happened, we would aid Israel because that is the focus of our government. And I think we may do it for political balance more than anything else, since it is the only democracy in the region we afford it more trust and political capital than we did Hussein or Iran during the 1980's.

Unions are created as representatives of the workers to bargain with their employers. In government, the workers already work for the people that are both their employers and their representatives, the rightfully elected politicians. When these elected representative begin creating unions solely as power blocks and funnel unneeded money into the union employees' pockets, vote buying occurs and the political process becomes corrupted. Unions aren't needed in government as a matter of practicality. And most justices are very loyal to the law. Scalia supported the right to burn a flag, although he detested the act. The men on the bench of the SCOTUS are more loyal to the constitution than you think. However, Roe v. Wade was made in contravention of state laws. If you want to legalize it, go through the states, but how can you justify granting a statutory right under a national constitution?

I'll get to finding that link in a bit, I think it was taken off the Gaurdian's website.

Okay, I'm not willing to argue semantics on the "U.S. ideals" line. It was really not what I meant to say. Just scratch that, but the rest about the Dems refusing to abandon partisan politics holds true. I'm not expecting Tom Daschle to hold a "war for oil" sign or expect Bill Frist to hold a "Bush is second only to Jesus sign." I expect both of them to correct their constituencies and try to justly represent them. But Feingold (D) did a good job recently of correcting some people on the war. I don't mind people having a different opinion, and I doubt Feingold or Bush does either, as long as those opinions are informed and factual.
dr_taber's Avatar .
dr_taber spoke on Mar 17, 2003 at 02:38 PM
For a Reverend, you sure have a potty mouth.

Shame shame.
Zeleth's Avatar .
Zeleth spoke on Mar 20, 2003 at 03:27 PM
Poor stupid liberal hippies, we know you all are stupid you don't have to prove it over and over again.
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 20, 2003 at 03:56 PM
It seems things got worked out. Sure people fuck up but in the end things DO get better.

Taking one point in time and focusing on that alone won't win your argument for you. Times have progressed and we are constantly changing as our needs change and concerns arise.

I have to ask... do you really believe you are important enough that "Big Brother" is going to be watching you? I mean really... they do their research before they act. They do not go around tapping everyone and hope they find a terrorist.

That would require 24/7 surveillance and take 3 times as many people as we have citizens to cover everyone. Heh, a bit absurd eh?

Mind telling me which personal attacks you are referring to? I back up every argument and statement I make. When it goes to insults it is usually because it falls into the eye for an eye department.

Don't like it? Don't get me started ;)
IndigoShaper's Avatar .
IndigoShaper spoke on Mar 20, 2003 at 04:13 PM
"They do not go around tapping everyone and hope they find a terrorist. "

Ever heard of the "ECHELON" system?
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 20, 2003 at 05:47 PM
We didn't receive quite as much help as you seem to think. Never have they actually "Bailed" us out of anything.

So yes, you are wrong. I don't need to boycott anything because I have never had anything french. Think about it, none of the crap was actually invented by them.
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 20, 2003 at 05:48 PM
I never said I was perfect so shut your cock-holster. :D
Reverend Jynxed's Avatar .
Reverend Jynxed spoke on Mar 20, 2003 at 05:53 PM
If so, yes I've heard of it. I'm hardly shaken over it and don't think it is that spectacular.

The Government hardly has the resources available to monitor everyone 24/7.

Random scanning of stuff for key words is nothing different than flagging key books. It isn't like someone is sitting there violating your privacy reading your steamy letters to Juan...

The system still needs to be directed and it isn't used to spy on everything someone says on a cellphone, or the like.

Of course I hear your love letters to Juan are a good read so they probably do monitor you guys 24/7 ;)
burn2shine's Avatar .
burn2shine spoke on Mar 20, 2003 at 06:01 PM
Do you really not see anything wrong with the precedent things like TIPS, Echelon, TIA, etc set?

I mean, from all of your comments, you seem to rationalize it by saying "oh, they would never monitor me", as if the old adage of "the innocent have nothing to worry about" really was true.

Could they monitor everyone 24/7? No, not right now.

But the fact that they are TRYING to do that should give anyone pause.
Leptictitious's Avatar .
Leptictitious spoke on Mar 20, 2003 at 10:31 PM
Nice grammar stupid head.
DC's Avatar .
DC spoke on Mar 20, 2003 at 11:02 PM
has devolved into a liberal/conservative hate-fest. Some funny stuff being said here.
typing_monkey's Avatar .
typing_monkey spoke on Mar 21, 2003 at 09:12 PM
I'll start with the easy one...

"lost in your own little world. Well perhaps when you finally hit puberty and grow some short n curleys you will begin to understand how the real world works."
-Now is that really necessary?
"we should just let all you fucktards die in concentration camps. We should allow you to be over run and exterminated. All your weak willed pleas for help should go unanswered." "Fucking cowardly twat." "We don't want to have to fight wars for you fucking pussies either. I sure as shit don't want my tax money wasted on your sorry asses in war, or peacetime with 'aid.'"
-Well...I'm a proud member of the military doing my part, and hardly any of the other posts said we shouldn't go to war. The argument has tried to focus on Bush's reasons, and the other argument involves the complete lack of privacy not that far removed from the days of McCarthyism.

"Taking one point at a time..." That's exactly what you do to win arguments. What's your strategy...? And what exactly do you mean by "times have progressed"? Please explain. Since when do we blatantly disregard due process? Aren't the accused innocent until proven guilty in our court systems?

I never said the government monitors EVERYone. That would be absurd; you're absolutely right in that regard. The point is that the government should be expected to be held to the same standards as the people, and if NOT then the people deserve the choice to determine whether or not they'll allow such practices. Mentioning "I support terrrorism" does not warrant complete disregard of my rights through wire taps, tagging, and other surveillance. The reference to 1984 is an allusion to remote possibilities under the current system, not the existence of anything near that magnitude.
The way things are now, they don't have to do any "research" at all. Common restrictions like arrest warrants have given way to the concept of protecting americans from terrorism by rendering nearly everything usually considered private under scrutiny. What is there to protect against abuses in the system at this point? Not much at all.
I again assert that terrorist activities are no less prone to occur than before we all lost our minds and approved policies like the Patriot Act. Have they served to discriminate against Middle Easterners and those of Middle Eastern descent? Yes. Anyone pulling a Timothy McVeigh or poisoning water filtration plants? No. Enhanced security measures have made a difference, but those by and large are non-discriminatory.

Yeesh.
typing_monkey's Avatar .
typing_monkey spoke on Mar 22, 2003 at 04:42 AM
Oh, my. The bold font has broken out of its cage and released all hell on my comments...oh, no...it's breaking through the defenses!

Save yoursel- AAAaaaggghhh...
's Avatar .
Anonymous Coward spoke on Apr 09, 2003 at 08:06 PM
The Bully Theory Defense for American Strongarming

[link]

- Radical Apathy

"More than a political party. It's a way of life."
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Anonymous Coward spoke on Aug 08, 2003 at 12:17 AM
And when I said the United Nations is a vague, international body concerned with its own interests I meant this: bureacrats owe their allegiance to their leaders which owe their own allegiance to their people - United Nations charter notwithstanding.

What are our own representatives at Congress, then? A vague national body concerned only with their own interests? ;D
My point being, duh.
Spooke's Avatar .
Spooke spoke on Aug 08, 2003 at 12:36 AM
What blood would this be, considering that they've been blowing up innocents for decades while we've only been defending ourselves - against MILITARY targets?
ChePibe's Avatar .
ChePibe spoke on Aug 08, 2003 at 08:48 PM
While the French did make the revolutionary war a shorter and much less bloody affair for both sides, they by no means "won the war" for America. The Atlantic ocean and distance from England played a much bigger role, and from the beginning Washington wasn't planning on beating the British through massive military victories but by making the war impossible to win for the British by slowly wearing them down and making it too expensive to fight.

Granted, French naval support was of great help, but as you note it wasn't done out of any great love for the colonists or democracy so much as it was done to spite Britain. They did it for their own purposes, for their own gain, and they received it. Britain got off a contient they happened to own the majority of.

Then, a few years later, as a short man bent on world domination took over France, he noticed that he probably could do without the land they had in the Americas, but he could use some cash to pay for his army.

America obliged. Of course, we obviously got the better end of the deal, but that's just what happens sometimes when one country's desperate, now isn't it?

Also, as a side note, the constitutionality of that deal was highly questionable. Should we give that land back to France?
darknessfalls's Avatar .
darknessfalls spoke on May 06, 2004 at 10:56 AM
bush is such a f**kin idiot, his dad was better at wat he did, but not by much, as for bush... we should beat him over the head wid a 2x4. he kills hundreds of inocent people every month almost. maby americans should kik his ass out of the white house and get a real president. us canadians dont take ne shit from ne 1 and were surviving perfectly. screw bush and screw christianity.
Hollowpoint's Avatar .
Hollowpoint spoke on May 06, 2004 at 11:54 AM
When trying to portray another person as an "idiot", it's best to make an attempt to spell even complex words like "what", "maybe", we're", "kick" and "any". The proper use of the "shift" key should also be employed at the beginning of sentences.

Otherwise you look like a complete fucking retard.
darknessfalls's Avatar .
darknessfalls spoke on May 07, 2004 at 10:20 AM
just cause im not a 36 year old man that still lives in his mothers basement like you. i dont need to spell shit rite cause it looks like u could still read it... wats that... i hear your mamma callin you for your bed time fag.

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